150 Reasons to hate Vancouver

A list of reasons to hate Gotham, in no particular order. This list is a work in progress …

(1) Grey and overcast:

If you were born and raised here you’re used to it, but come from somewhere else, or move away for a decade or two and come back – it’s hell! Where is the damn sun for 10 months of the year? I’m not a vampire I NEED SUN! Grey, grey, grey. Overcast, rain, grey overcast, fog, mist, grey, rain. WHERE IS THE SUN?!???

You complained about the winter conditions elsewhere but it’s not much better here. Like the east, it’s black at 5 PM until late morning in the winter … rain pouring down. At least in the east there’s SUN reflecting off the snow during the day and part of the evening; it’s actually brighter!

(2) Too much rain:

“But everything’s so green and nice because of the rain!” Sure that’s true. But what’s the point of nice looking surroundings when you’re inside 9 months outta the year because of the downpour!? Do you go out jogging, hiking, walking the dog, taking the kids to the park in the downpour of rain? NO!

But … I love paying an extra $1500 in rent a month to live here and hide from the rain!

In the east you hid from the snow all winter, and now here your bills are doubled/tripled to hide from the rain all fall, winter and spring …!

(3) Housing:

You live in the most expensive province in Canada (generally speaking ) and the most expensive housing market in Canada, or a close second. A house now costs over A MILLION DOLLARS; a condo is now over HALF A MILLION DOLLARS! A dumpy place in the lower mainland nearby is nearly $800,000.

Canadian law states that a down payment of 20% is required. Have you got an extra $200,000 kicking around on top of currently paying rent and bills? You’ll also have to pitch in for closing costs (inspection, titles, legal fees, etc) so tack on an extra $40,000 or so.

If you do have that money and you’re not filthy rich, why are you so dumb that you’ll pay that to live here and scrape by instead of living like a king somewhere else?

I know people who were actually dumb enough to sell their homes and come here where they will RENT for the entirety of their life/retirement years at $2000-3000/month!

(4) The Walking Dead:

Get used to seeing the mentally ill, homeless and drug addicts everywhere, especially down town! You’ll be shopping while crackheads smoke their pipes right beside you. Take a stroll with the family as people go into seizures and overdose in front of your eyes. Walk to work while businesses and the city are hosing off the feces in the street.

People flock here because it’s the warmest place in the country, exacerbating the problem. Most of these people are mentally ill or seriously addicted. The city pretends to “help” by spending money on shelters or other facilities down town which does nothing but propagate the issue. To seriously help these people you would need to change the laws, reopen the mental hospitals and have dozens of recovery centers and 24 hour live-in facilities downtown. But of course, that’s too hard and too logical. Instead we’ll just open shelters with crowded bunk beds and give people clean needles and vending machines. Why attack the sources of the issues when we can just treat the symptoms?

They spent a BILLION on the Olympics a decade ago, and some want to spend billions getting the Olympics back here, but they don’t want to fix this mess!

The DTES (down town east side) is infamous and has been notorious for decades! Even major cities like London and New York don’t have areas like this. The only comparable place is skid row in Los Angeles – a city with a population nearly as large as the entire province of B.C.! In the words of Snoop Dogg: “clean this shit up!

(5) Greater Vancouver Zoo

So the zoo is technically in Aldergrove, but what a pitiful place! Absolutely pathetic: overpriced, uninspired and sad; wandering around a small, ugly little area viewing a handful of bored, lonely animals. (What a goddamn embarrassment.) Not much to see or do. The aquarium is nothing compared to American ones, but at least you won’t feel completely ripped off. Don’t waste your money on this dump!

(6) Smug locals:

The idiots here think they’re “so great” because they live in Vancouver. Since the rest of Canada is a shit hole with arctic winters (and the rest of B.C. is a dump with more of the same) they feel smug living in “warm” Vancouver. It doesn’t matter that a house will cost a million dollars, living is unaffordable, salaries are lower than elsewhere, or that it rains 3/4 of the year, they’re smug and self satisfied.

Despite the smugness they’re also cripplingly insecure: when someone makes a humorous, inconsequential Tumblr blog it makes the news. When a few people complain on Reddit it makes the news again. When some kids made the film “Crack Ass” about Surrey (a city in Metro Van) it made the news and the mayor got involved. Nobody is allowed to actively criticize “the best place on earth” – yes the license plates used to say that. Sure you can complain about city issues, but you’re still pressed to acknowledge how amazing this place is and superior to elsewhere. Fools !

(7) Rental prices:

Forget searching for Noah’s Ark or El Dorado … try finding a decent, affordable apartment in Vancouver! Average rent is around $3,000 for a two-bedroom and over $2,000 for a one-bedroom, which may be a little more or less depending on where you are; rental vacancy is currently hovering around 1%.

I remember over a decade ago (when I left) I was paying $1500/month for a one bedroom – nothing included- in a garbage apartment where three people were murdered in the span of a few months and bullet holes filled the foyer. Oh but it’s totally worth the cost! To quote another: “but, but … muh mountains!”

(8) The “Big One”:

It’s inevitable that a major earthquake is going to hit the Pacific Coast. It’s predicted to be a 9.0 – causing massive destruction and a tsunami with waves up to 20 meters high. The last one was hundreds of years ago and the next one could quite literally be any day now. The prospect of the ‘Big One’ hangs over the city like a cloud, but most people aren’t prepared and assume it won’t happen.

Imagine spending $700,000 on a condo on Vancouver Island, or $1,000,000 on a house in Vancouver only to have an earthquake completely destroy everything! Better start looking up insurance, mind the deductibles and premiums!

(9) Pets:

It’s extremely difficult to find a place to rent if you have pets (particularly dogs). The Residential Tenancy Act gives landlords the right to prohibit pets, and unlike other provinces there are no legal protections or rights for pet owners. Only about 10% of rentals are pet-friendly and these tend to be very expensive, high-end places. Competition for the few overpriced units is stiff regardless, and tons of people are forced to give up their pets or face homelessness.

(10) Rioting.

In places like the United States people riot as a protest over social injustices, which may be: poverty, income disparity, systemic racism, police brutality or any number of complaints. In spoiled, fool-hardy Vancouver they riot over hockey games and concerts!

They rioted over the Grey Cup in 1963 and 1966, and outside a Rolling Stones’ concert in 1972. They rioted in 1994 when the Canucks lost, and again in 2011. (And let’s not forget about the one in 1907 where they rioted over Asian immigration.)

(11) Wet dog.

Dogs make great companions: they’re loving, loyal and guard the home. They also stink when they’re wet. And it sucks when you live somewhere that rains 80% of the time because it demotivates you from taking the dog out. When you do your dog gets all wet, the fur stinks, the stench is rubbed onto other materials in the home (which in turn stink), and muddy paw prints are left everywhere.

(12) Gas prices.

Gas prices are usually the most expensive in B.C., and especially in Vancouver. (Fuel taxes are the highest as well.) After reaching $1.70/liter the premier ordered the B.C. Utilities Commission to investigate why prices are so high. The B.C. legislature finally had to pass a law mandating fuel companies disclose how their prices are set.

In typical B.C. corruption-style, the report found “no collusion” but magical “unexplained price differences” costing consumers an extra half billion per year. B.C.’s corrupt politicians also refused to provide provincial price regulations. Right now gas prices are hovering at around the $1.49/liter mark – the highest in the country and province.

(13) Car Insurance

Of course, in addition to all the other expenses, if you live in Vancouver you get to pay the highest amount for car insurance. B.C drivers pay the most in Canada, at an average of nearly $2,000 per year. ICBC (Insurance Corporation Of British Columbia) runs a monopoly in the province and its basic coverage is mandatory.

(14) “Mountains” excuse.

If you ever bother to complain to the smug, deluded locals you’ll hear some variation of … “but … but … the mountains!” The “mountain views” are the miraculous cure-all for any personal or financial woes and excuse everything.

There was a time when the middle class in North Van and the upper class in West Van were situated in the lower mountain regions/next to real wilderness; with urban sprawl, population growth, and new construction that time is nearing its end. You’re not living in beautiful wilderness in down town Vancouver, or east Van, or shit ass Burnaby or Surrey. You might be near a park or can view the mountain tops from your window – worth the $3k rent? You decide! Only the rich are living the true “mountain” Vancouver lifestyle.

(15) “Ocean” excuse.

Another variation of the ‘natural beauty’ excuses – but this time the ocean. And by “ocean” they mean the beach/seaside. Who has ocean views? Unless you live in a multi-million dollar house right on the waterfront, you don’t! Or unless you live in an ultra-expensive apartment down town right by the beaches, you don’t, again.

The vast majority of renters in down town Vancouver, North Van, West Van, Burnaby, Surrey, New West and everywhere else don’t have “ocean views”. Count on your fingers how many times you’ve been to the ‘ocean’ (sea) this past year, and ask the person next to you as well. Once? Twice? Five times? Once a week during the summer? Worth $30,000 in rent? You decide! Even the mountain-excuse is better than this one!

(16) Minimum wage.

B.C.’s minimum wage is not enough to live on. If you’re a student attending college, an immigrant, or need an entry-level position in the work field you aren’t going to get by unless you live with multiple other people.

According to a study: minimum wage workers can’t afford a one or two bedroom apartment in ANY of Vancouver’s 70 neighborhoods. That would require a 112 hour work week. To spend the recommended 30% of income on housing a person would need to make over $35/hour.

People I know who make $4-5k a month and live alone still spend half their income on rent. So it’s either multiple generations in one house, a half dozen students living together, both parents working or toeing the precipice of homelessness! (And this isn’t including food, bus passes, daily necessities, etc.)

(17) Lowest pay for tech workers.

Vancouver has the lowest wages for tech workers in North America, something the city actively bragged about while trying to attract business. The average wage of a Vancouver software engineer is $60,000 USD ($80k CAD) compared to $113,000 USD in Seattle.

(18) “Sun” bragging.

Sure, a warm sunny day is undoubtedly a good thing – unfortunately Vancouverites won’t shut up about it. After 40 days of rain and one sunny day: “See? It doesn’t rain all the time! It was a beautiful day today!” After 10 months of grey, gloom and downpour: “We’ve had four weeks of sun this summer. See? It doesn’t rain all the time here!” If there’s even one sunny day all year Vancouverites will brag about it and downplay the other 364 days of rain. ‘Cause it’s “the best place on earth!”

(19) Money Laundering.

In 2018, 7.4 Billion was laundered in B.C. alone, 5 Billion of that coming from real estate – the majority of it in Vancouver. Why does this matter? It pushes up real estate prices, which in turn screws locals out of home ownership, distorts the economy, and causes breakdown as the middle class and working professionals go elsewhere.

(20) Seasonal Affective Disorder.

S.A.D is a mental health disorder wherein the weather/seasonal change can cause depression in some people. The most common form is found as the days get shorter and colder: generally fall or winter. Vancouver doesn’t have an extreme seasonal change as it is generally grey, overcast and raining, in fall, winter and spring – meaning if you have S.A.D you’re screwed.

According to the Canadian Mental Health Association it affects 2-3% of Canadians severely, and another 15% in a milder form. That’s nearly 1 in 5 Vancouverites!

(21) Overdoses.

Despite a recent decline in 2019, British Columbia has been setting new records for overdoses for the past six years. Of course the largest number happen in Vancouver. (See: The Walking Dead, #4). This isn’t a surprise given the size of the city and the problems down town.

(22) Unhappiest city.

Studies consistently rank Vancouver as the unhappiest city in the country. This is no surprise given the low wages, skyrocketing costs of living, housing market, corruption, and rain. Whenever it doesn’t hold this distinction, it’s coming in second place to Toronto.

(23) Very little heritage.

British Columbia didn’t join the Confederation until 1871. The city of Vancouver wasn’t incorporated until 1886 making it one of B.C.’s youngest cities; that year a fire razed it to the ground and it had to be completely rebuilt. So there is very little by way of old heritage buildings, sites and history like you find in Montreal, Ottawa, Quebec city or even Halifax! (Something built in 1900 is “old” here.)

(24) Fires.

When there aren’t wildfires up north or in the interior of the province then they’re below in the United States. Time to breathe in that nice grey smokey air! Every end of summer there’s the feeling of apocalypse-lite as you wander around the smoke haze.

(25) Food.

Food isn’t necessarily a lot more expensive than other places (although it isn’t cheap either) but it’s required to live and feels terrible when you don’t have enough of it to eat. Affording it can be difficult when you’re paying the most expensive rent (or mortgage) in the country, the most expensive gas and car insurance in the country, and so on. (Unlike the new shoes or movie tickets it’s not something you can forgo.)

(26) Missing the snow.

After years of arctic temperatures, blizzards, huge snowfalls, and the rest of the inconveniences that come with the crazy winters – you’re complaining and wishing you could live in the mild winter climate of Vancouver, until you get there!

Years later I can actually say I prefer the snow. I’ve come to call Vancouver “Gotham” because of the gloom and dreariness which becomes oppressive for months on end: the black or grey skies, constant downpours, damp that chills your bones – it’s awful. At least snowfall is beautiful and snow reflects light making things brighter. If you’ve got quality winter gear and a good vehicle, I’d take the snow any year!

(27) Assholes.

Assholes are everywhere and this place is no exception. But what’s worse than dealing with massive assholes all around you? Dealing with massive assholes while living in the most expensive place in the country and paying the most expensive rent, gas, car insurance, bills, etc. It’s the cherry on top of the shit cake!

(28) Lousy radio stations.

The radio stations pretty well suck, with Z 95.3 still being the same crappy station its been for decades. (The non-rock stations still play “Soul Decision” !!!!!)

(29) Shit service at criminal front organizations.

Prepare for the worst Chinese food you’ve ever tasted, a hideous tattoo, a pedicure accompanied by infection … ETC. Although most of B.C.’s criminal money is processed through casinos, real estate and drugs – there are also plenty of front organizations. It sucks when you happen to use one (unaware) because of the terrible service and ’employees’ who can’t do their jobs. (It could be argued they’re actively trying to drive away legitimate customers!)

(30) Shit help for the disabled.

For example, take the typical disability payments: $1,200 a month to live on for a single disabled person; up to $1,600 for a single parent with two children. Keep in mind that the average one-bedroom rental in Vancouver is over $2,000 a month. Even if you move to Surrey, Burnaby or New West – you’d be lucky to get a one bedroom for $1,200 a month.

(31) Shit help for the poor.

On ‘Income Assistance‘ (welfare) you will receive $760 a month if you’re single, or a whopping $1,300 a month for a couple with two children. Vancouverites are so generous!

(32) Shit affordable housing.

Because Vancouver doesn’t care about the poor whatsoever, subsidized housing is a joke. There is a serious need and to keep up with it Vancouver would have to build 10,000 units a year, which of course they don’t do and build condos instead. Only 4-5% of Metro Vancouver’s housing is ‘public housing’ compared to 20% or more in many European cities. People will wait YEARS and as of 2017 there were 4000 people on the waiting list.

(33) Driving in the rain.

With the wet roads comes the glare on the puddles and rain from streetlights. It’s even worse at night in certain places because you can barely see the traffic lines and stops. In dimly lit areas it’s downright scary! (Don’t forget the hydroplaning!)

(34) Can’t even own a mobile home.

There are few areas set aside for mobile homes because of Vancouver’s real estate market selling off to foreign interests or big companies. Even if you find a park to live at (on undisputed land) the pricing is ridiculous. For instance let’s take Surrey (generally considered the cheapest area) and have a look at listings: the cheapest you’re going to find is about $150,000 going up to $400,000 to live in a trailer!

(35) Loneliness.

One of the biggest complaints about Vancouver? Loneliness. Year after year the complaints continue. People call it a cold, socially-isolating, depressing and lonely place to live. Whether you’re a senior, young person, immigrant or single, everyone seems to struggle with it.

From 2012-2017 it’s the same old (and you could even discuss it with an MP over a $25 breakfast)! Complaints about it in 2012; one out of four residents complaining about it in 2017; now in 2020 a guy who moved to Vancouver is making a documentary about it; some poor man made a cry for help about it in 2018 (that went viral); that led to a CBC special series about it (including a mental health crisis hotline centre where 80% of calls were about it); this could go on and on. It’ll still be this way 10-15 years from now, guaranteed.

The best advice would be “get out there” and “go meet people”. That’s kind of hard to do when you can’t afford to, when you live-to-work, with the urban sprawl and racially self-segregated neighborhoods. Plus it’s raining outside … AGAIN !!!!

(36) Highest single-family home property taxes.

According to SFU research, Vancouver homeowners pay the highest single family property taxes in Canada – even beating out Toronto by $1,000 a year! In typical Van-style it’s not clear where all the money is going or what it’s being spent on; costs don’t equate to adequate public services and an audit is suggested.

(37) Earaches.

I’m not sure who else suffers from this … painful inner earaches that feel like the start of an ear infection (yet never seem to progress that far). Despite years in Ontario with the temperature fluctuating between 0 C to -30 C I never experienced this; I assume it’s related to being cold in the damp.

(38) Emergencies.

Living in the most expensive place in the country is a bad situation in emergencies … whether it’s personal, a pandemic, or anything else. If you can’t work you’re soon in over your head.

Take COVID for example: how do you afford $2,000/month rent during a two month shutdown if you aren’t allowed to work? If your business is forced to temporarily close how do you pay your $5000/month rental space?

There are endless examples but the main point stands: unless you’re wealthy Vancouver is a bad place to be with health problems, work issues, or local/national emergencies.

(39) Cockroach landlords.

One problem with living in an expensive, overhyped city with a vacancy rate of 1% (down to 0.4% in surrounding areas) is horrible landlords who are emboldened and entitled. They know there are dozens of applications for every rental and that risking eviction or battles with the Tenancy Board puts people in a perilous predicament. They use their advantage to take liberties in how they treat their tenants.

You can expect: slumlords who never do repairs; slumlords who mislead you into renting places with severe issues (mold, bugs, leaks, etc); landlords who expect “extras” from tenants free of charge (repair and maintenance, landscaping and lawn care, babysitting, “massages”, etc); landlords or building managers who are never available (since they live in China, don’t speak English, etc); on and on.

(40) Damp.

The damp is awful for many reasons! First, is constantly feeling cold and/or uncomfortable. Second, is the structural damage done to buildings from condensation or rain penetration (mold, water logged walls, etc). Third, the damp can aggravate asthma, bronchitis, respiratory issues, arthritis and other conditions, worsening them.

(41) Leaky condos.

Built between the 80s and 1998 there were a minimum of 65,000 “leaky condos” across the province. “The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation defines leaky condos as a “catastrophic failure” of building envelopes, which lets water into the building frame and leads to rot, rust, decay and mould.”

After spending over $500,000 on their condos, people began to discover the poor design and “California style” construction was not suited to the wet, damp climate and expensive repairs were needed. Some spent over $150,000 on repairs while others went bankrupt.

There was then an “inquiry” that led to “higher standards” and a short lived interest-free loan for “leaky condo” owners. There are currently around 200 (acknowledged) leaky condo buildings still in the Lower Mainland and twenty years later repairs are still ongoing. Beware of the leaky-condo lemons out there!

(42) Gangs.

Yes, there are gangs in ‘nice little Vancouver’ too and they’re only growing in numbers, shootings and levels of violence. (And in typical Vancouver-style everything is ass-backwards!) While gangbangers in the U.S. came from slums with extreme poverty and no prospects, most of Vancouver’s gangsters are middle-class and rich kids from good homes looking to make fast, easy cash.

Aside from classic bikers (Hell’s Angels) there are the Red Scorpions, United Nations, Brother’s Keepers, Independent Soldiers, etc; and the Indian and Chinese groups.

Yes there are drive-by shootings here too, where innocent bystanders are hurt and killed or wrong properties targeted. In fact, you’re more likely to witness a drive-by in an upper class neighborhood than Vancouver’s poorest areas. Gang-related violence accounts for 37% of all killings in BC.

(43) Port city.

Vancouver, Halifax and Montreal are Canada’s three major ports. Vancouver by its very geography is a port city, which makes it an automatic target for criminals and smugglers: guaranteeing crime, violence, gangs and corruption, despite local laws and policing efforts.

More than 1.5 million shipping containers pass through every year, and only 3% are checked by Border Services; corruption, incompetence, and Vancouver-style idiocy run rampant.

Some examples: fully patched-in Hell’s Angels members are part of the local Union; gang members from other groups are longshoremen, and criminal record checks aren’t required for longshoremen. Anecdotally, I know of alcoholic and drug addict longshoremen actively working (even while smoking crack)!

Vancouver: Rants

“Shocking as it is, great hiking trails and natural beauty don’t pay my bills.”


“It’s getting harder to find trails that aren’t being trampled by the masses. Getting there is also becoming more irritating as the highways clog with traffic worse than ever.”


“I feel the same. If you want to relax on a lake, you need to either travel three hours or to get there at 7am and enjoy until 9am.”


“This is what I’ve been saying for a long (long) time; no one denies Vancouver’s beauty – but it’s not the only beautiful city, and the cost to live in it (or near it) is so exorbitant as to be (at least empirically if not subjectively) not worth the cost. People being unhappy in ‘paradise’ is completely possible; Vancouver personifies this. More younger/mobile people should really consider leaving.”


“We did. Once my wife and I had our daughter we moved to Melbourne. Salary is 60% higher for us. Cost of living is almost similar, but the salary increase means we can afford better opportunities for our daughter.”


“I deny Vancouvers beauty. The nature is lit, the city looks like ass.”


“This. So much this. I could never undertand the claim that Vancouver is beautiful. It isn’t. It’s a revolting dog’s breakfast of uninspired architecture and shitty design surrounded by remarkable natural scenery. While I am no fan of the majority of modern architecture, Vancouver goes out of its way to look extra terrible.”


“I’m not sure what you want here, or what any of this has to do with my original comments on how Vancouver is home to a load of fuckugly architecture, but I’ll bite. I don’t live there anymore. Lived there for a number of years (Kits, East Van, West Van) before getting tired of the quality of life and jetting. Live in Victoria now. Much better, nearly incomparable. There are aspects of Vancouver I miss, but it’s easy to find it elsewhere (and it’s often done better).

If you want to see the best west coast city, it’s Seattle. The best Canadian city is a toss up between Halifax and Quebec City with Montreal as a close second.”


“We also don’t get that beauty anymore in August when “Smoke Season” rolls in. You can’t even fully enjoy the summer here anymore because it’s ruined by a sense of existential apocalyptic dread.”


“Well, Vancouver sucks by pretty much every other metric too. Dating? Sucks unless you’re a fitness lululemon junkie, loaded, or LGBTQ. Friendships? Unless you have a core group of friends you grew up with, sucks. Making plans with people? Prepare for flaking out.

Cultural entertainment? We have Bard on the Beach and Vancouver Symphony if you’re not into lesbian surrealist renditions of snow white at Community Theatre, that’s pretty much it. Challenging/interesting career with growth potential? Only if you’re a realtor, or maybe in acting/VFX. Everything else doesn’t exist here or caps out very low.

Family? Well, even if you can get hitched, you still can’t have kids because you can’t afford daycare or a place big enough to actually raise kids in.”


” … And at the end of the day, money doesn’t directly add new happiness but not having money does significantly add unhappiness.

Maybe some people can be happy living in the West End or on Commercial Drive with 3 roommates in a 1-bedroom (yes, I know more than a few who live like that), but it’s not sustainable for vast majority past early 20s.

Career growth isn’t even a financial thing, it’s one of self-actualization and personal achievement. Knowing that if you want, you can put your roots down in the city, and eventually achieve that C-Level position without having to uproot your whole family.”


“The red zones are where the middle class and poor live, although Richmond is also red. The light yellow is shaughnessy, and UBC and west vancouver are blue.

You could almost read it as a map of striving and struggle. The poor, middle class, and the wives of new-money astronauts are unhappy. While old-money in the middle of it is doing ok, old money set apart from the rest is happy, and academia just doesn’t care.”


“weird because in my experience with academia, about 1 in 3 people are clinically depressed, and I remember reading a paper that stated a similar number for phd students.”


“This is mostly due to housing affordability and income inequality that has markedly worsened in the last 3 years. The housing prices have pushed people farther away from their jobs and social circles. There are also significant financial pressures on the average person. There are increases in property tax, gas prices, car insurance and consumer goods/groceries (due to the low dollar). Combine this with increasing mortgage rates and it starts to paint a very clear picture. Vancouverites face longer commutes, less time for leisure, less money in their pockets and the stress of massive mortgages with increasing rates.

I know that I for one spend way too much time in traffic and have been increasingly frustrated lately. The Massey tunnel, Alex Fraser bridge, Lions Gate bridge, Iron workers memorial bridge, Patullo bridge and so on are bottlenecks that cause people to spend more time stressed out rather than at home relaxing. Our road and transit infrastructure is decades behind what is needed for the region. Transit is significantly worse as it can take 2-3 times longer than commuting by car.

It’s also tougher to socialize as people move away and you lose your friends base. Add on the fact that it’s getting harder to meet new people in society due to everyone spending so much time online, in traffic, overworked or stressed out at home. It’s taking longer to establish your career and reach financial stability which results in people getting married in their mid-30’s instead of mid-20’s. It’s no wonder that the birth rate is dropping.

This is true in most major cities across North America. The bigger the city, the bigger the problems. Vancouver’s massive attraction of foreign buyers has accelerated and amplified our issues relative to other cities. The politicians and voters need to step up and address these issues or they will only compound going forward. I have high hopes that the NDP will make progress but so far progress has been rather slow and underwhelming.”


“The BC government has done a shit job taking care of their citizens from a housing / deter money laundering and illegal foreign investment perspective.

And this underlying unhappiness trickles down into everything (like implementing bike lanes for example).”


“I think if any serious investigation is ever done we’ll find it goes beyond ‘shit job’ and straight into ‘actively complicit.’ Hell until right before the last provincial election they were still telling us that it wasn’t really happening.”


“I think it’s the fact that people keep getting their houses broken into and bikes stolen, while a permanent drug addict population keeps growing with a complacent and often-times complicit poverty sector, that makes people unhappy.

But keep diverting your attention to the latest phantom “crisis” (it’s always some variation of “rich corrupt foreigners”) that has never affected you negatively, but that the media has gotten you worked up about. You need an external enemy to blame your problems on, because Vancouver’s real problems are too hard to face.”


“Living in New Zealand right now.

It’s amazing how much more content and happy with life people 20-30 are when there’s actually opportunities for success available, the ability to buy a house, etc.

I imagine Auckland is more like Vancouver though since it too is crazy expensive.”


“Most livable unhappy city.”


“Most livable for the rich, I would add.”


“You forgot about unaffordable”


“It is so liveable, professionals are moving away due to high costs of living. So liveable.”


“Kill me now”


“Can confirm. Went to Vancouver, was unhappy, flew back to Germany.

Things i expected: A smarter version of the us, beautiful nature, happy people, interesting culture, nice Asian food.

What i got: can’t pay the rent, earn nothing, basic food costs more than minimum wage, expensive gyms, expensive housing, expensive food, expensive mobile bill, crackheads everywhere screeching at nothing, Asians, rich Asians, richer Asians, someone breakes into a car, someone breakes another mans skull, someone lives in our trash bin outside on the street, this costs money, that costs also money, monotonous condos, worst night life ever.”


“This is perfect… but I cracked up at the “someone lives in our trash bin”


“I love this because it is so true. Not sugar coated, pure truth. I had family visit and live here for “6” months to travel and visit BC. They left after 4. They had the idea of moving from London city centre to DT Vancouver and being able to walk around to and fro. What they didn’t realize is the crackheads everywhere so they felt uncomfortable with all the screeching and yelling. Naturally for a family from London with children 4-7. Quite the shame. Our city is definitely getting a negative light for those who visit.

Another anecdote was when my MiL visited from Seoul, she thought Vancouver was clean and safe, and sure enough, more crackheads and bewildered screams and screeches from addicts. It’s a problem. Fuck these junkies. Not mental illness, they are junkies who are addicted to crack, meth, heroine and they are ruining the city.”


“I’ve lived in a handful of cities in northern North America and while the Vancouver area is without a doubt the most spectacular when it comes to both natural and man made beauty, it’s got the ugliest personality of them all. It’s downright not “Canadian” just how unfriendly the average local is.

The lack of affordability for the average Joe makes Joe stressed all the time. Stressed people don’t tend to enjoy life as much, so when it comes to interacting with one another, patience and fuses are short.

On the opposite side of that coin is all the greedy motherfuckers out there who got in early enough or have unlimited resources and have pushed the housing and rental markets out of the reach of Joe and his family. Plus you throw in the rental scams (both trying to find legit ads or getting evicted so the landlord can “move in” and bump up the rent for the next poor bastard) and the lack of stability will drive you to wits end.

I moved out here almost 3 years ago for work, which worked out well, being as my wife and l had talked about Vancouver as a destination since the mid 2000’s. I’m now looking forward to the project wrapping up so l won’t need to live here.

It really is a shame.”


“Maybe it’s not Canadian because more than 50% of the people are from somewhere else. At this point Canadians have to adapt THEIR way of being rather then them assimilate to our way of life.”


“Crazy, you’d think a place with a super high cost of living, low minimum wage and 9 straight months of rain a year would be a barrel of laughs.”


“Depressed and lonely here, can confirm.”


“I think a lot of people are sick of being told that Vancouver is one of the most livable places on earth when a bunch of people can’t find a place to live, and can barely afford it when they can. When they realize they have to choose a place out of town, traffic is a pain and transit doesn’t provide a viable alternative.”


“Yes transit outside of the downtown area is shit. I lived in the suburb where it was literally faster to walk than wait ans take the bus (which sometimes didnt even bother to show up). The Skytrain is fine but needs public washrooms.”


“We need to show people that Vancouver is no longer livable, in fact you will die here. Guaranteed.”


“Based on the constant flow of people moving to the North Island from Vancouver I definitely believe it.”


“Condo living isn’t so wonderful after all. Seriously, back when I was growing up by Lonsdale, nature was a lot closer. North Van is getting ruined by all the traffic. Not that I care much, since I can’t afford to live there anymore.”


“I think your housing situation is worse. I’m looking to move to Vancouver and your rents are shocking and I live downtown Toronto”


“This. Had a coworker who flew in from TO. 1 week of every month and he was shocked – apartments are smaller for more $. So when people say that the price for a 1br in TO and Vancouver are the same.. the size and quality of that 1br differ.”


“I moved from Vancouver to another major city. Much happier now that I’m out of Vancouver.”


“It’s because things went downhill so fast in the last 3-4 years that people think Vancouver is worse off than other cities. Affordability is definitely the worst here but the sudden decline is what has people stressed out the most. There are worse places to live but it’s still unfair how bad things have become here.”


“The option of immigrating to another country always crosses my mind when this comes up, but once you’re waist deep in tuition debt, uprooting yourself for a new life is a hard ask. Nevermind if you just straight up have a degree/skill set that just isn’t marketable.”


“If it was a lot easier to work visa / green card South, I think there would be a much higher percentage leaving for the US rather than going East. I would move to Longmont CO in a heart beat if able.”


They’re unhappy because they haven’t tried living in other cities.

“No shit. Everywhere in Canada is cold as fuck. Try living in another country, it is much better.”


“Real estate values in previously affordable areas of metro van have doubled (or more) in 3 years and rents have gone up almost as much, it’s happened far too fast for us to adapt and re-evaluate our lifestyles/standards of living/goals etc.”


“This is what confuses me. On the international subreddits everyone is “omg canada so friendly poutine is the best sorry!”. It is clear none of them ever visited Vancouver. We are polite but sure as hell not friendly.”


“If Canada merged with the US, I guarantee that Vancouver would lose most of its appeal as it would no longer be the warmest city easily accessible to Canadian citizens. Hence the unhappiness in this town.”


“The most unaffordable city in North America is also one of the unhappiest? Colour me surprised.”


“Can confirm, I hate living here.”


“All I know is my wife and I will never be able to afford a detached house here. And maybe if we’re super lucky and continue to live extremely frugal we’ll be able to have enough saved for 20% down on an apartment or condo or townhouse in like 10 years.”


“its true its really all quite depressing”


“But the famous idiots of Instagram tell me VanCity is the best place on earth and everything is great every day and oh god I love this city oh god we have ocean and mountains and live for the moment so like follow and favourite my vide..”


“As far as I’m concerned, summer is amazing. It’s the rainy season that is so far the opposite that I guess it negatively effects us overall.”


“The pacific northwest is generally a shit hole because it’s always grey, fact. The only place more depressing is Manchester.

And truth be told, if it wasn’t because of work I wouldn’t be living here tbqh. Nobody knows how to drive and it’s constantly raining 8-10 months out of the year. And did I mention the CoL? $2500/m for a small studio? Pretty soon Vancouver will be a tourist hot-spot and nothing more. It most definitely won’t be a place to raise a family. Who knows – in a decade Vancouver might even surpass Monte Carlo in that regard…”


“Melbourne is infinitely better than Vancouver. The only thing that sucks about living in Australia is that it’s far as hell.”


“It’s the frikking rain, people. No brainer.”




“I’ve lived in this city my entire life and I find the longer I live here the more unhappy I become. I know Vancouver is beautiful and I should be thankful to live here but I don’t feel that way. And a lot of my friends have mental health issues and it seems like it’s only in Vancouver that it’s this bad. I travel a lot and I see people from other countries are much happier even with so little. Does anyone else think that living in a big city with so much opportunity that it’s causing a decline in mental health because more people are lost and feel like they have no direction? It’s also very competitive here and I find a lot of people are quite shallow and antisocial compared to other cities I’ve been to… does anyone agree?”


“All of the people I know that have left are actually significantly happier after leaving, which is why I was wondering. Wish I could do like a poll on here haha”


“I would have agreed a couple years ago, but my feelings have changed.

You’ll have to figure out what about the city is causing you to feel unhappy — cost of living, lack of engaging activities, etc. If not, if you go somewhere else with the expectation that you’ll suddenly be happier, you might be disappointed. The feeling from traveling doesn’t necessarily reflect the feeling of living somewhere. People in other countries may have their own challenges, and you generally have fewer responsibilities when traveling (e.g. you aren’t working).

Furthermore, Vancouver is not the only city with mental health problems. Suicide rates per 100,000 are very similar between Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa and Vancouver.

Big cities do give off a competitive vibe, and maybe that’s just not suited for you — there was a study that says that people in cities are generally less happier, and I think part of it is because some people are in cities by necessity rather than by choice.

Lastly, from people I’ve spoken to who have lived in other cities, the west coast is very laid back compared to other cities — friends from Seoul, NYC and Toronto say that Vancouver’s pace is a breath of fresh air (one friend had been suffering from stress related health issues in Seoul)”


“Yeah I failed to mention this as one of the reasons I feel it’s difficult to live here. The cost of living. I love everything about this city from the mountains to the trees and would be difficult to live somewhere like Toronto or somewhere that is just a city with no view. But it’s just so unaffordable.”


“Weather can have a profound impact on mood and outlook, and when we get prolonged rainy spells when we’re expecting mild and sunny weather, it can get pretty oppressive.

Before you draw any lasting conclusions, wait and see how you feel a few days after the weather has been nice and bright. You may find a dramatic improvement, suggesting that poor weather has been an influence. You may notice no real improvement, indicating a broader influence. It’s an easy little experiment to do (though highly susceptible to confirmation bias) but you may find it helps to inform your next steps in terms of how to improve your emotional/mental health.”


“My mental health certainly suffers more in Vancouver, especially in the fall/winter months, but it’s not city itself more to do with the weather, short days and lack of sunshine in the winter,so yeah living here is a bit more of a struggle for me compared to San Diego and Phoenix where I have also lived, in those city’s the depression was far far less and overall I felt better and happier in those city’s especially in San Diego, I was way more active there year round since the weather there is so much better.”


“I think the depressing thing is the standard of living tends to decrease. Growing up, most people I knew lived in houses that their parents owned working regular jobs.

People aspired to grow up, own a house, travel, have a retirement, etc. Now, the dream of something like home ownership is all but gone for a lot of people, and their standard of living aspirations are much smaller.

Everybody I know who was moved away, to the island, to Calgary, to Winnipeg, to the US, they have better paying jobs, and many own houses, with yards, and vacations.

Here, it’s good luck just renting a place and lower your standards. Don’t plan on wanting anything too fancy.

Seems to happen to a lot of West Coast cities like San Fran, Portland, Seattle…they all have an opiate crisis going on now too. Coincidence?

But yeah, in a nutshell, as each generation passes, we’re told to expect less and less out of life – lowest paid, highest cost of living, congested. Imagine a buddy living in Calgary who pays a fraction for housing, has cheaper gas and car insurance, gets paid more for the same job, etc…

I know we have milder weather and beautiful trails but still…”


“Yes, it’s the most depressing place I’ve ever visited around the world and I can’t wait to leave for good and never look back.”


“The sort of Vancouver I’ve been exposed to, is people not doing anything other than staying home, watching Netflix, playing video games, 420. This is because of some self-imposed excuse of weather/$$/SO, usually once they are past the age of trying to drive back from nightlife in downtown (drinking and driving back from the club, and cabbing is too expensive because there is no Uber). Others are more healthy and regularly participate in hockey/ultimate/dodgeball/volleyball/hiking/basketball/yoga/badminton/tennis etc., which is at least healthy and recreational. In general I also don’t sense much hustle from people because everyone’s parents already can pay for their downpayment, so they are living a deferred Peter Pan lifestyle. There is not much meaning and purpose that Vancouver readily offers, because there is no struggle and its too comfortable. (Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/bfsrn8/does_anyone_else_living_in_vancouver_ever_feel/elgjqv0?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x this comment actually echoes a lot of my sentiments) Most of Metro Vancouver just feels like a sleepy suburb where everything closes early, nice cars and blatant displays of wealth, while there is no obvious way to accumulate wealth other than converting into a FIRE industry snake and throwing away whatever education you got in your arts degree (not necessarily a bad thing). I actually have no idea what most people are even aiming for, other than trying to settle down and have brunch every Sunday and say they’re too busy with work, or because there’s not much apparent meaning, people end up on a hedonistic treadmill.”


“I moved to Calgary 3 months ago and honestly the sunshine helps me immensely. I know people will say “try taking vitamin D” but it didn’t work for me. I was honestly so tired of rain/overcast gloomy days. Since I’ve been here I find it a lot easier to be positive about things. Like my situation didn’t improve a million times over in Calgary vs Vancouver but the cost of living, weather and honestly the friendliness of people here is great.

This is just my 2¢, I love Vancouver and I called it home for a really long time but after visiting last week I can say I don’t really miss it.”


“I think the biggest problem as a country we don’t have the options for cities like it is in the USA.

He’ll there’s 70 cities that anyone can move to and there’s a different vibe.

We’re fucked for choices.”


“I grew up in Vancouver and moved east 25 years ago. I’m Scots Irish and my grandfather was part of a generation of men who arguably founded the city and turned it from a backwater rainforest into something resembling a modern metropolis. The city is a nightmare. I’ve never seen a place with so many isolated people leading lives that are meaningless. I think it has something to do with how isolated it is geographically. It is bordered on the south by the US border, trapped from the east by the Rocky/Cascadian Mountain ranges, and then further isolated and cut off by the Pacific Ocean.

It’s a relatively young city (compared to the rest of the world) with a terrible history of racism, poverty, drug abuse, and personal alienation. To add fuel to the fire, its housing market, literally where people have no choice but to live and make their lives, has been shockingly abused by rich foreigners who have treated it like an expensive, speculative, asset class designed to hide money (legally and illegally gained) from corrupt governments or foreign authorities. If that isn’t enough, there are at least two or three generations of Chinese immigrants (immigration is fine with me by the way) who can go to the same schools, eat in the same restaurants, and drive the same roads with you and your lives will never intersect in any meaningful way. It’s a failure of massive proportions. Behind a glittering, beautiful facade, Vancouver has a skull face like the angel/demons at the end of Raiders if the Lost Ark.

Unfortunately, that rant doesn’t really solve your problem, nonetheless, it addresses it. Some of the commentary here is telling you that moving cities won’t solve your problem. I can’t say if it will or it won’t. There’s an interesting documentary about a fuck up named Steve Fonyo (from the west coast) called Hurt you might check out. It seems to me that the thesis is that happiness is about where you choose to live and the people you choose to live with. ie. it has a “botanical” element. So, start something with other people that is meaningful to you – a book club, a running club, a paddle board club. Join something, build something, and do the hard work that puts glue between people and gives lives meaning. Best of luck.”


“You are correct. Vancouver living is overrated mostly due to the 8 months of rainy weather and subsequent darkness. Didn’t really like Vancouver that much but enjoyed living in North Vancouver and West Vancouver much more.”


“I find a lot of my friends as I get older in age are moving out somewhere East because its the price of living that’s causing the depression.”


“Don’t think I said anywhere that the city was making me depressed but simply saying that I’ve become unhappy as time goes by and have friends that are depressed and was wondering if it is because of the city. I’m a pretty happy person and never struggled with mental health but it’s just getting more and more difficult to be optimistic about a future living here. And people seem to be taking “the city” literally but more so everyone in the city as well as the city itself and what the city consists of. And it’s because of all the travelling I’ve done to so many places that I feel this way. For example there is trash everywhere in this city and so many garbage cans however you go to an extremely populated city like Tokyo where you can’t find a garbage can anywhere yet there is no litter anywhere…”


“I found the exact opposite when I travelled there. New Yorkers get such a bad rep but compared to Vancouver people they are way less shy, awkward and antisocial. I had more banter and great interactions with random strangers there than I’ve had in my whole year in Vancouver.”




Why are people in Vancouver so unhappy?

“It’s not a difficult question to answer.

Fewer close social ties. Research shows social ties are a major predictor of happiness. As the city becomes more unaffordable people leave and social ties break. Building new relationships takes time. But fewer ties = less happiness, in general.

It’s harder to make ends meet. When you’re struggling to make ends meet, it’s harder to enjoy life. You spend more time working, have less income for the necessities (housing, food), less disposable income for discretionary purchases, less leisure time, less social time, and more worries.

Relative income matters. Research shows you’ll be happier if you earn 100k when everybody else earns 50k vs if you earn 200k when everybody else earns 250k. Vancouver has stratified along the lines of homeowners vs renters. If you’re a renter, you have less wealth than homeowners in your community. Because we’re social animals, we compare ourselves to our wealthier friends consciously and/or subconsciously. And the results of that comparison makes us less happy.”


” Salaries and unemployment levels did not emerge as much of a predictor of one’s happiness as did shorter commute times and what proportion of a family’s income goes toward housing. This confirms work by the Vancouver Foundation over the past several years that found that young people (between the ages of 18 and 24) in Metro Vancouver, and Vancouver in particular, are burdened by a sense of profound loneliness. It’s not a place where important human connections are easily made. “


“Moving backwards in life when you give it everything you’ve got, is depressing!!”


“Because it costs so god damned much to live there”


“Materialism and shallow people.”


“Seriously though, every time I go to the United States I always have random (not-homeless) people strike up conversations with me on the street. This almost never happens in Vancouver. The Seattle / Vancouver freeze is real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze

I think multiple factors are at play, but I suspect asian cultural influences definitely plays a part.”


“Because, at least in Vancouver, their salaries are comparatively shit and their cost of living, mostly due to housing but other things too, is ridiculously high. What a difference some spending money can make.”


“Wanted: Extremely experienced professional self-starter to drive 50 km every day into Vancouver and try and find parking in order to sit in our soul destroying office doing things you hate. Must be proficient in 20 things irrelevant to your duties. Competitive $45,000 salary. No benefits. You’re taking over a mat leave. When we’re done with you we will discard you like the temp garbage you are.”


“No community, wealth disparity, rain. My tops <“



And people.

“Oddly, I think you nailed it in three fucking words. Dude.”


“When you write this all you seem to show me is that you live a very sheltered and highly segregated lifestyle away from all the shitholes. You aren’t giving me any reason to care about what you say because all you are talking about is stuff other people experience. Can you give a reason that Vancouver should be good for others?

There are a lot of people who can’t afford to blow their money on weed, alcohol, parties and dining out. And there are many people who can’t afford or for various other reasons can’t take 2 weeks vacation off in Whistler to enjoy the nature. If you can’t afford the time or money to get out of the city all you really end up seeing are the slums or a bunch of absent low-density housing. I hope that explains to you why some people see a lot of ugliness in Vancouver and not any of the natural beauty.

And when you write about poor people who are angry at hippies and cries of “racism” you betray a lot of ignorance. I feel relative to myself you have to be very privileged and have a very thin skin to care about such problems. To me real problems are family and friends experiencing pneumonia, being crippled, teen pregnancies, broken homes, affording dental care and the premature slow decay, ageing and enfeeblement of gluttony, cigarette, alcohol and other diseases and addictions. It’s only words on the internet. In an environment where it is common to swear like a longshoreman racial slurs just aren’t that serious.

And maybe the reason that I am not a fan of the “pretty girls wearing tight outfits” is because my comparable peers were “white trash” who got pregnant in high school. To be honest, I should stop kidding myself that I’m much better and probably date downward around in the 2/10 range. I can certainly tolerate “pretty girls wearing tight outfits” but that doesn’t mean its something to be happy about.

I like to pretend I’m better than where I grew up and block out a lot of it but its just not possible to forget the anger. I hope this shows to you why there is a lot of some people see a lot of ugliness, just don’t care about the same problems as hippies and liberals, and have a lot of jealously and rage towards the rich and attractive. And of course there are a lot of people who had it worse than me such as a bunch of the First Nations.

Also what is this weird fucking obsession with “sushi?” It doesn’t taste like anything. It’s just bland and nothing like styrofoam.


Also can you talk more about your Vancouver? I just can’t see how you can’t see all the fat, ugly, poor, crazy people with lots of problems.”




“Stress levels are high here. It is understandable It is hard to feel secure long term as you might need to move and then face serious problems in finding and paying for a roof over your head. It is expensive. People are flakey and not all that friendly.

Overall it feels like things will get worse too as new rentals aren’t being built yet our population is predicted to increase significantly.

Transit is good but a lot of commuting sucks with packed buses and trains that are too hot and stuffy and everyone coughing and sneezing. Forget about driving, you will go nuts with the horrible lack of skill and poor etiquette here.

Adding to it is the fact that most of us feel trapped here because we can’t easily go anywhere else and many of the same problems are all over Canada anyways.”


“I have friends and family here, so that keeps me here. I’ve also got a niche career that locks me to a few specific hubs in the world, and of all of them, Vancouver is the most appealing. I grew up here, so my roots are here, and Im acclimated to the seasons and lifestyle.

At the risk of being a gatekeeper though, if you don’t snowboard/ski/hike, if you hate long raining seasons, if you don’t have roots here, and/or if you aren’t tied to a career in the city… I’m not sure why Vancouver would be high on someones list of places to live.”


“born and raised in vancouver for 26 years. Moved out to Japan for a job in 2017-18, and still here. Honestly the grass is greener on the other side. Vancovuer is a nice city to visit, but a terrible place to live. High real-estate prices, dumb PC culture, lack of useful transportation, poorly managed civic construction, etc. etc.

The slogan “Best place on Earth” does not even come close.”


“Best place on earth (to sell some fentanyl and then launder your money through overpriced realty)”



“Welcome to the unhappiest city in the country!”



I am from Edmonton and been living here for one year. Here is what I observed since living here.

-The weather is much better then edmonton, Its much drier in Alberta and you dont notice until you go back.

Way way more space in Edmonton, the parks here will be full of people unlike edmonton. The lines here suck, Costco on weekdays after one hour of opening, you cant even find parking on weekdays.

-The people in vancouver suck. People from edmonton are much more friendly, lots of people here are snobby. Also parts of Vancouver dont even feel like your in canada (ex Richmond).

-Traffic and finding parking is much worse and the roads are smaller, although there are not that many pot holes.

house affordability and obvious foregniers driving up the prices.

Everything is cheaper in alberta. From gas to rent to no PST and you make less money here than alberta. Its not even funny.

nature and events there are more of that to do but they are sometimes packed w/ people.”


“People are miserable here because of the high cost of living and seemingly indifferent and cold populace. That’s my perspective 13 years after moving from Toronto.”


“It’s really disheartening to see that people who are genuinely struggling to live here, or LEAVE here, are being written off as shut-in-nature-hating loners. Experiences vary. For example: It’s really hard to enjoy that nature beyond Stanley park if you don’t have a car. It’s hard to have a car if you’re spending 1700 a month on a one bedroom. Want cheaper rent? Share with people or move further away. Oh wait, now you have a long commute!

My advice: hope you’re someone who can get used to seeing people OD after you leave your trendy dinner restaurant, and don’t have, or ever want a pet.”


“Can’t stand it, but this is where the work and family is. I keep my sanity by escaping the lower mainland at pretty much every opportunity I get. I’m actively planning the construction of a small escape a few hours up the coast. Vancouver is great to visit but its nothing special to live in. I grew up in the lower mainland and have lived in some of the most desirable area’s of Vancouver for the last ~3 years to see if maybe any of them were better… nope, the only reason to live in the city is to cut your commute down or you have the cash flow to eat out and go bar hopping every night.”


“I lived in Vancouver for 10 years or so and it was ok. The Rain and gloominess did make it difficult in the winter. It got more depressing as the years went on. Moved to Melbourne a few years back and I don’t miss Vancouver at all. I think Vancouver is a very pretty city because its surrounded by the mountains and ocean, but the city itself itself is pretty meh. That’s just my personal opinion.”




“The cost of living is extremely high. Wages are relatively low.

I guarantee you that’s the ultimate cause of 90% of the bitching you read around here.

It’s frustrating and stressful and makes young adults feel impotent.”


“I think you nailed it.

More so than just being expensive, many of the things you’re told you should be doing to be part of the Vancouver lifestyle cost a lot of money and are part of the resort town mentality here that exists, but people for some reason don’t want to admit to. It also doesn’t help that Vancouver is a resort town for the Pacific Rim’s economic elite. Many of the excellent activities really are only affordable to the top 5% of income earners but somehow everyone in Vancouver is expected to participate in them.

Oh, you don’t drive up to your second property every weekend in Whistler or have a seasons pass to local ski hills? Then what do you do?

Don’t go out for overpriced drinks and expensive meals at trendy restaurants a couple times a week? Then you’re just not taking advantage of this world class city. No wonder you’re a miserable fuck.

Fortunately, there’s also a ton of free or very cheap stuff to do in this city as well. The hardest part being that you need to find friends or have family that also like to do the same things.”


“That’s pretty much it. I do ok myself, but I know a lot of people who are not asking for much and work very hard, and despite that, they can barely afford a place to call home. I think to assume everybody wants a 3000 square foot home would be a lie, I think most people would be happy with a quality 650 square foot place that didn’t cost a fortune.”


“I was pretty happy in Vancouver, but I’m currently travelling and I’m constantly amazed how much cheaper life basically everywhere else is. I’m seriously thinking to move away and just make Vacations on the west coast. Maybe by the time I’ll retire I will be able to afford an island home and move back.”


“How about the 9 months of gloomy weather?”




“Oh I’m leaving. I just signed a 1-year lease and I am seriously considering moving out east when it ends next year. I’m here for my career, I did really well for myself in tech. But I would take a pay-cut to live somewhere where there is actual quality humans, affordable housing, and place where you aren’t shamed for being conservative. I’m really interested in visiting Halifax to see if would be the right fit.”


“Grew up here. can’t stand the bad drivers and pretentious entitlement of people. There are tons of nice people too, but I’m done. Moving to kamloops because I can transfer up there and work in the same field of work, and afford a house with a yard. Seems like a no brainer.”


“I left Vancouver about 2 years ago and moved to Melbourne. Having grown up in Vancouver ( and briefly Edmonton) I decided I needed one last life shift. No regrets and loving it so far. When you move away you see the horrible aspects of Vancouver and also a few things you miss.

Honestly though, I have to say my most recent trip back in December was abit of a shock. The city seems even more so on this insane hyper change that just blew me away more than ever in the past.”


“My fiance and I moved from Nova Scotia to Vancouver roughly 10 months ago and we are already talking about moving somewhere else in a year or so.

It’s not that we don’t like the city itself, though walking by a pile of syringes on the ground on Robson didn’t really make for a great afternoon stroll yesterday, but we both took higher paying jobs when we moved here and even though we have a good income and no children, we know we could never afford to buy a place to live here, and when you have to admit that, it just makes it hard to see any type of long term future in this city.

I would also add that I have never lived anywhere that has such abundant wealth thrown in your face as Vancouver does, and it can be a little disheartening.”


“Same boat. High paying job no kids but I can’t afford to settle down in a home and enjoy life. Sick of playing rental musical chairs.”


“Vancouver Is a terrible, terrible city to live in.

I was born here. I leave often. 4 years in London England, 2 in Paris and 2 in Los Angeles.

I will say it again, and people will argue with me, but It’s true. Vancouver is the most expensive city I have ever known. Our wages are the lowest. Cost of everything is 2x what you will pay elsewhere.

My personal feeling is that they’ve conditioned canadians to not complain, we are supposed to feel grateful and appreciative for everything regardless of whether it’s a good deal. We are supposed to be “nice”. It makes for an awfully one-sided relationship with the corporations that dictate our lives.”


“My husband is 2 years away from finishing his PhD, and then we will be leaving Vancouver for probably the US. There are way more jobs in his field south of the border, and I’m working now for a multinational so would most likely transfer to another office in the US when we make the move.

I’m quite relieved, because it’s depressing how much Vancouver’s identity is rooted in real estate, money laundering, and birth tourism, with no real sense of community. So I’m looking forward to him finishing his degree and us having the opportunity to start a new chapter.”


“I left Vancouver, made a career in Edmonton, got wife and kids, made enough money to now move back. Took me 8 years.

I left Vancouver to make a living. If I was still in Vancouver, I would be sharing rent and complaining about housing until I was blue in the face.

Go outside of the lower mainland. Opportunity awaits. If you are trying to wait for Vancouver to change for you, it will never happen. Vancouver is an area of Canada where the class divide is probably the greatest, job opportunity the lowest and affordability impossible.

Go outside of your bubble, find work in other provinces, become an expert in your field and once you have all that, then come back to Vancouver if you desire. A paycut will happen and real estate is expensive so make sure you saved up.

But if you sit there struggling to survive, waiting for the government to give you the affordable housing to lottery, you might as well lay down on the road and act as a speed bump. If your entire life is stagnating, you are slowing going to die from your own self inflicted demise.”


“We moved here a year and a half ago(ish). We struggled to find a place to live in, and the day after moving in, they implemented the new foreigner tax thing. We knew we’d never make enough to buy a place here unless we take a crazy mortgage for like 40 years or I don’t know what. My friends working in construction have all told me that the apartments here are botched and are not in good conditions, so it’s another reason why we weren’t sure about what to do.

So we have discussed and discussed, and we know we will leave vancouver whenever possible. This city made me extremely practical : do we HAVE to stay here ? no ? Then why struggle here when we can have a better life elsewhere in Canada ?

We can’t afford a car. We can’t afford even having children ! We are not tied here, so we can leave, but I feel bad for everyone who grew up here and is pushed out because of how expensive this city has become.”


“I’m 26 years old, and leaving this summer, in about two months. I’m beyond sick and tired at having to pay exorbitant amounts in rent prices, and having next to nothing to do here for nightlife or real culture. Everyone here is so douchey, and the new influx of wealth here has really ruined the city. All you basically end up doing outside of work is smoking weed, watching netflix, and reading books. It’s a very lonely and isolating experience for a lot of people, and I’m one of them.

I’m also tired of the ethnic enclaves- I really want a place with real multiculturalism, and a culture that isn’t built around fear or political correctness. People don’t even make eye contact out here out of fear of ‘xyz’. It’s probably the downtown eastside that influences this… The drugs and homelessness problems here are extreme, and up the whazoo. The dating scene is absolutely dismal, as most people are just passing through the city on an exchange, and those that choose to stay are forced to confront the actual cost of living here if they want to settle. Most young people don’t want to pay the price of living three hours outside of the city in an overpriced house. I don’t blame them. Not even remotely.

Also, there’s this weird element of denial and stockholme syndrome here. We’re supposed to be “the best place on Earth”, yet the locals have been sold out, overseas investors have taken over, families in the east live in poverty, and nothing substantial has happened about the extreme drug/homelessness problems in the last twenty years.

In terms of career, there are next to no business or career opportunities. Even if you got a good job out here, it’ll be underpaid compared to virtually everywhere else you’ll go, and at the very least, half your money is likely going to rent. This is often coupled with infuriatingly stupid living conditions (rathole basement suites, esl landlords feeling entitled to telling you how to live within the space you pay for, etc). You’ll find a place for $800 with any of the following: no stove; no shower; no parties; no dogs; no overnight visitors; no cooking with spices; must babysit our children/dogs; must give me massage services; etc etc etc! It’s disgusting.

Yeah, I’m sick of it. There are other reasons I’m leaving, too. But all I know is that I’m tired of waiting around in the hope that I’ll get to experience the Vancouver I knew as a child. That Vancouver is dead. What it has become now is a shallow narcissist, and it’s time to accept that.

Also, prepare for the narcissists and sociopaths that have come out here en-masse, like a massive in-crowd from all corners of Canada and the world. If you have lots of money to throw around, prefer a status-driven social circle, and you don’t mind pretending to be someone else to impress others, then sure, it can be a good time.

In terms of architecture, there’s no real character to the buildings either in my opinion- it’s all glass boxes. Anything with a history or quirkiness to it is soon torn down to make way for new developments. Do you think The Rio Theatre is going to last long? Exactly.

Overall, in my opinion as a local, if you’re saving for a place and are seeking real growth, down-to-earth people, real culture, real music, and real community and trust, then you are almost certainly in the wrong place. Even the weather sucks out here. You’re waiting in the pouring rain, living out day-after-overcast-day in the hopes of two months of summer, and even then, that doesn’t always happen. And dear Vancouverites, other cities DO in fact have superior weather and amenities. Just so you know. We’re not the only city in the world with mountains, and it ain’t the mountains you’re thinking about on a day-to-day basis when you’re working out here.

I don’t mind paying high rent anywhere, but if I do that- I’d better be getting something out of it. Here, it feels very one-sided, like a relationship with an abusive partner that gives nothing back to you, no matter how hard you try. And the smug BC Pretentiousness is just nauseating.

Anyway, that’s how I feel.

I know every city has its problems, but I’m beyond sick of this one. It’s way past time I moved on with my life. I’m going straight to Toronto. If I don’t like it, I’ll find a way to settle in one of Europe, Japan, or L.A. Life’s too short. Way too short to put up with this nonsense. You can’t get me out of here fast enough. I know there’s more to life than this. FUCK YOU, VANCOUVER!”




“I really like and miss Vancouver, but been living in Montreal for a while I see a lot of what Vancouver deeply lacks – art, character, history, culture, life! And the weather is pretty mild compared to these harsh winters we get here. Regardless, in a Friday night in Jan or Feb, at -20C, you go walk around at St Catherine, St Dennis or Crescent and there would be tons of people enjoying themselves, from pub to nightclubs, to burger joints to amazing coffee places. I would need a lifetime to try all places around here.

That said, I miss the seawall and the views. and I really dislike the political/separatism aspect fo QC.”


“I agree with your observations about Vancouver. I’ve lived here a long time, but have lived elsewhere too. This city is overhyped in many ways.

Our cheerleaders have done an amazing job selling our city abroad and locally.

To those who are looking for stability, safety, good education, healthcare, and nature, few cities beat Vancouver. But if you want long term affordability and urban excitement, Vancouver is low on the list of modern cities. Our nightlife generally sucks, there little in the way of a real arts district, there are virtually no good international-level museums and galleries, independent creative business are on the extinction list, there are very few affordable things for families to do during non-summer months besides visit malls, and our local governments have few ideas on how to make life fun.

If I was a millennial who could pick up and go, I probably would, but my roots are too deep here. Nevertheless, I sympathize with young people here who feel hopeless about this city that’s been way overhyped.”


“I think the entirety of the GVRD/Valley is over-rated. There are other worldly cities with mild climates and nice scenery that don’t cost an arm and a leg to live in due to high rent/real estate, gas, taxes, low wages, and so forth. Saying this is tantamount to heresy around here; people just point to the mountains, the ocean, and the mild climate as if this compensates for everything else – perhaps for some it really does, but for most, I think they’re lying to themselves. You want to see downvotes due to unpopular opinion, watch this comment for poof.”


“I was born and raised here. This city fucking sucks ass.”


“I would also add that everyone’s so busy working their butts off to live here, they can’t even enjoy this place.”


“Speaking from personal experience: it’s quiet because it’s expensive. I would love to go out every night and do something fun, but I can’t even afford to go to a bar and have a few drinks more than once a week. Shows and events are out of the question. I even make an events calendar every month only to find I can’t afford anything as it comes time.

Low wages and a high cost of living completely kill my ability to enjoy what’s “happening”, and i suspect it’s that way for many others as well.”


“Vancouverites are used to taking it up the ass it seems, in the salary department. I moved here also from another province and had to take about a 25% paycut. People here need to grow some fucking spines.”


“Vancouver is a nice place to visit. As for living and working, well that’s debatable. I left Vancouver after 12 years. While it wasn’t “terrible”, the lack of meaningful community, extreme competition among co-workers, low wages and astronomical cost of living had made living in Vancouver more of a chore than it was worth. What good were the North Shore mountains if I couldn’t enjoy them except to look at them from my office window? How pleasant was it to walk around a neighborhood, knowing the only way I could live there was by having tens of millions of dollars? And the whole “fake it till you make it” attitude was just getting too much.

The last year and a half of living away from Vancouver has reduced my blood pressure and stress levels, eased the strain on my bank account, allowed me to put together the start of a down payment on an actual property, and brought me closer to members of the community I now call home.

Just my 2 cents.”


“Agree about the COL in comparison to the wages. The wages do not compensate for how expensive it is here and that’s an understatement. Yes, everyone (especially newcomers) raves on about the beauty, the mountains, the water, the lifestyle but it doesn’t justify the costs.
And yeah, it’s not progressive like other cities; I mean, we don’t have Uber here, seriously! I grew up here and I feel stuck here given my age and situation.
I’ll make the best of it and I’m thinking of leaving the city when I retire. (although the way things are going, that may not be the solution either)”




“Vancouver has changed a lot over the past few years, and not in a good way. Here are just a few ways in which everyone favorite ‘most liveable’ city has changed for the worse.

Some parts of the city are effectively empty. If you walk around Coal Harbour or parts of Point Grey at night, you’ll notice that very few of the houses/condos have lights on. Are they trying to save on their hydro bills? Nope. The new owners live outside of Canada. Either they are keeping the property empty so they can flip it in a year or two, or they use it for 2 weeks a year when they visit Vancouver.

Young families are leaving / have left. When you’re 25 and single, you can pretty much live anywhere. Things change when you have your first kid. Now you need space, and the $5m homes on the Westside are just slightly out of your budget. So where do you go? Either you move out to Coquitlam and commute, or you leave for somewhere like Squamish or Kelowna.

The ethnic mix is changing fast. Some of the Kindergarten classes now have more than 60% ESL students. There are areas like Richmond, Dunbar etc that are pretty much Chinese-speaking now. Diversity is unquestionably a good thing, but some of these neighbourhoods are actually so full of non English speakers that they have lost any sense of community.

The ‘rural’ feel has gone. People used to say that Vancouver was a city with a small urban core, surrounded by a leafy, semi-rural area. Not so true any more. Densification is ongoing. Homes have been turned into duplexes, triplexes, or torn down and replaced by apartment buildings. Expect this to continue.

There has been no attempt to preserve the city’s character. This is true in a couple of ways. From a purely physical sense, the city’s planners have allowed countless traditional homes to be torn down and replaced by charmless ‘luxury’ boxes. In a less tangible sense, the uncontrolled immigration and foreign investment has rapidly and irreversibly changed the demographics. Has anyone in city hall ever sat down to think about what Vancouver used to be, and what its turning into?”


“Vancouver: the city with everything but a soul.”


“I lived there for a year and was amazed at the divisiveness of the people. No real sense of community at all. After a year I had enough and had to leave even though it meant leaving a really cool job.”


“Vancouver is like a sex doll – looks good, nice to visit but empty, expensive, and likely to cause self hatred.”


“I grew up just outside of Vancouver, luckily in what is now a $3m home my parents built decades ago on relatively undeveloped land. My mum is an entrepreneur that spent 30 years building a multimillion dollar business and there is no conceivable way she could afford anything remotely like it now.

I’ve made peace with the fact that, barring a huge windfall, I’m not ever going to be able to afford a decent quality of life in my hometown, much less a property. I’m into my twenties now and everyone I went to high school with either still lives at home, or paying ungodly rent to be crammed into a divided home like a Dickensian workhouse. And this is the norm.

It’s not so bad though because I’ve also come to realize I don’t want to live there anymore. Ignoring how obscene it is that the whole city is basically one big investment/money-laundering scheme for rich foreign plutocrats, there’s a huge diaspora of Vancouverites. In 20 years, when I might actually buy a house somewhere, Vancouver is going to be a cultural desert populated by bankers, real estate agents, corrupt city officials, and Beijing billionaires.

“B-b-but muh mountains!””


“Here is my Rant:

I lived and owned a few business in Vancouver from 2008 to 2015. Through my time there I had dealings with the business community, City Officials, Real estate developers and property mangers.

I can honestly say the city is broken. It does not have the will or physical strength to enforce any kind of limit to growth. The companies and real estate developers simply outspend and outmanoeuvre a electorate that is too transient (bet you dont know many people that live in Vancouver that were born there), or too uninvolved in the state of things, and a goverment that is all too happy to play along.

There are so many appalling things happening within the power structure it would make a US city like Baltimore cringe.

I currently make 2/3 of what I once made living in Vancouver, but I reside in Montreal. I am telling you I live like a King in comparison.

Every time I go back for work I cant believe I once lived there…”


“I left Vancouver a few years ago. Actually, I left Canada completely. Living in Asia; figured since I’m already becoming a minority in my own country and Vancouver is almost part of Asia now, might as well move there for real and cut my living expenses by 3/4.”


“I am from the easy coast. I moved to Vancouver after uni and stayed for 5 years. Beautiful if you get out of town and play in the rockies. Two points I would add are:

6) parts of the city are like an episode of the walking dead. My second day there I got up super early and took the Skytrain to downtown from Burnaby. There were junkies laying face down on the side walk (this is like 7AM) that I thought they were dead (nope, just asleep). There were city workers with Hazmat gear (gloves and boots) using these grasping sticks to put syringes into yellow and white containers. The drug problems in that city are unreal. Maybe other Canadian cities are equally bad but more hidden, but, I am guessing not. Why are there so many gangs and drugs in that city?

7) Job Salaries. When I got tired of it and moved to Toronto, my salary doubled for the same industry. I suspect part of it was me getting older and being more mercenary in my negotiations, but, it seemed like the job front was super weak.

I do miss the mountains though.”


“The uncontrolled immigration and foreign investment is definitely what is killing the city. And a change in policy should be such an easy fix. It’s pretty brutal that Vancouver is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, yet Canadians who grew up in Canada can’t even afford to live there and enjoy it.”


“Can confirm, Vancouver has gone to shit.”


“I left because I couldn’t afford to live there. Even making a fair bit above minimum wage (was 8$ at the time, I was making about 14$) I couldn’t freaking afford to live in New Westminster! Not that I lived horribly or anything. I could live comfortably and never really worried about eating and shit. But no savings of any sort. loads of cc debt. just lived to work. rarely went out or enjoyed life”


“As a native born and 2nd generation Vancouverite I feel your pain. What the hell happened? The culture of homelessness and rights of street people and drug addicts have been far more important than us taxpayers. Needles, garbage, poop both human and dog, city halls disregard for heritage, but the worst offender is this cult of density. Surrey has lots of space to grow so go grow out there.”


“I make 90k a year and live in a 1br in the west end with my two boys. I need to reevaluate my life choices.”


“I couldn’t agree more I also find that places like North Vancouver are being torn down house by house and are being replaced by overly priced apartments. As a 18yo male who has grown up in North Vancouver I find this situation a bit sad. I have always pictured living where I have grown up, but this seems financially impossible. We should limit foreign buying as this is exploding housing pricing.”




“Vancouver is fractured. The communities don’t mix. The city has always been multicultural yet xenophobic, cliquey and shallow. Friendly on the surface but not really kind or less there’s something in it for them. It’s been like this since moving here in 1990 and it will never change because it doesn’t want to change. The locals are so deluded and brainwashed into thinking it’s world-class and this behaviour is completely normal. Ultimately, they will tell you to leave if you don’t like it so you give up and become anti-social yourself. You have assimilated.”


“I’m from Vancouver and I wish I could take back the time I’ve spent here and have spent that time elsewhere.”


“the most bland classist gentrified pretentious place on earth”


“Every city has its spirit and Vancouver attracts the people who suit it. That’s why you can’t connect. Those who can’t tolerate it leave quickly. Some of us are stuck until we can save enough to leave, all the while keeping to ourselves because the alternative is to interact with the shallow self absorbed poor hygiene degenerates. It’s only getting worse. Leave. You’re better off. Take a good soul with you.”


“This city is a middling place that offers nothing unique to the average person. It’s woefully overpriced and severely lacking. It’s a movie set dressed up as a metropolis. The desperation that many have here referring to this dump as world class is downright pathetic.”


“Born and raised here, Van is bad, but North Van (where I live now) is the worst cesspool of entitled wastes of space I have ever seen. Have hated it since day 1, I don’t want my son growing up in this twisted, toxic atmosphere, and we will be leaving.”


“Vancouver has slowly but surely become a disgusting nightmare.”




“They suffer from the secret delusions and lies spread around the continent about how wonderful Vancouver is. It is NOT! I’ve been stuck here for the last 30 years, and I have hated every damp, dripping, dark, dingy minute of it. Retirement is nigh, and I’m already packed so as to Rip This Joint as fast as I can.

It’s the nonstop dampness. Even in the summer sunshine, you’ll find yourself damp and clammy under what you’re wearing.

The other big complaint I have about Vancouver is the dark, foggy, low-cloud-ceilinged winters. I read somewhere that of all Canadian cities, Vancouver has the worst suicide rate. No wonder..All this WETNESS is enough to make anyone wanna get outta here.

AND my last big b**ch about Vancouver is how the wealthy are so neatly hived off geographically from the peasants. They live across the bay, over the Lion’s Gate Bridge in “West” Vancouver. Well, La Dee Fuggin DAH! When I happen to be in West Egg I smell snotty attitude everywhere.”



I just moved to London UK after 17 years (mostly) in Vancouver. In one week here, I saw the Parthenon Marbles, a dozen Van Gogh paintings, dinosaurs, a dodo, Raphael’s sketches for the Vatican frescoes. – all for free. I ate Bangladeshi and Keralan curries, and heard more languages spoken than I can name. I got everywhere on transit without waiting more that 10 minutes for any train or bus even late at night.

Vancouver culture: one tour of sketches or lesser known works by a Rennaisance artist will come to the VAG maybe every 18 months – otherwise, hope you like Emily Carr… Museums? UBC Anthropology is OK, I guess – but when was the last time they had a David Bowie show? Vancouver Aquarium is world class, definitely, but it’s hard to fill a year of culture going between the VAG, Aquarium, and a handful of local-interest museums.

I’m sorry to say, but clean air, ocean and mountains do not make for ‘culture’.

And, yeah, rent is the same here in expensive London as it is in Vancouver…”


“Does anyone remember that earthquake we had at the end of 2015???

Well, this part of the world is waiting for the BIG ONE….

Most of the year we have rain, showers, horrific rain & wind, spitting rain, pelting rain and of course misty rain…..

If you are single and make at least $20/hr you’ll be A-OK add anything more and you definitely won’t be A-OK, even if you live outside of Vancouver….think about that!

Traffic and shitty, shifty drivers (anywhere in the Lower Mainland!)

Vancouver is a mostly conservative city so I consider Vancouver extremely boring, especially in the winter if you don’t do sports outdoors. Generally speaking, boring if you don’t have a lot of money.

Daycare is very expensive and hard to get your child in (waiting lists are insane)

There is gang life and criminal operations but they usually don’t involve the general public, outside of the city is a completely different story though

For the DTE (downtown east side) it is really a sad place, the smells, the activities etc…. Personally it doesn’t bother me at all, its OK if you wanna walk around the area however late at night (after 10pm) I probably would not do that alone.”


“Vancouver doesn’t have economy. It’s a very strange city in that it has a lot of inhabitants who lead a pretend live-work lifestyle. In a way, living in Vancouver feels like spending prolonged time at an international airport. The airport has a mock city feel, there are some stores and restaurants, but they don’t feel real, because it’s not a real city.

Eventually, sooner or later, your flight is gonna come in and you’ll take off to a more exciting destination. It’s inevitable.”


“1. No corporate growth opportunity
2. Forget about buying a house and if you do forget about saving anything
3. Travel time to anywhere is so much
4. Ferry terminals are far
5. In and out of Vancouver is getting painful day by day
6. Streets are getting crowded
7. Politics is getting dirty
8. Prices are rising”


(Source) (Source)


  1. Incredible high cost of housing (rental or purchase) which makes the cost of living very high.
  2. Wages that do not match the cost of living for many people, leading to poverty and homelessness even among working people.
  3. An entrenched drug using, mentally ill, chronically poverty-stricken and unemployed/unemployable population concentrated in the East Hastings area. Do not go down there alone at night…and I’d avoid it during the day as well.
  4. The WORST traffic congestion in Canada and possibly in North America, according to some rankings. When I’ve gone to the lower mainland, I try very hard to NEVER bring my vehicle. I HATE driving in Vancouver.
  5. Snow is rare and temperatures are generally mild – especially for Canada – but it can be depressingly gray with non-stop rain from November to March.
  6. A recent surge in what I call activist entitlement…such as tent city organizers who maintain that society MUST provide housing and income as a basic right.
  7. People who take advantage of Vancouver for criminal activity, including money-laundering, human trafficking, smuggling, and immigration fraud. It is a major port city and sits just north of the US-Canada border, so draws those activities.
  8. A surprising number of murders for a Canadian city. Most seem to be the result of rival gangs and the drug trade, so the victims are often reported to be ‘known to the police’ which is Canadian media code for criminals.”


“The prices for living is ridiculously high. A townhouse that looks like a dump is over 1 million.

Homeless crowd the streets, they build camps, and sometimes fires break out, burning houses around the camp.

Drug addiction, is horrible. When in Chinatown for a field trip, the druggies were so bad, we paid attention to the ground. Watching for needles.

EI – unemployment is under $700 dollars, my parents rent ou5 a 2 bedroom coach house for $2000 dollars a month. No renting near anything important is under a $1100.

In the Fraser valley, or lower mainland the bus routes are not out in the country like area, making cars a must.

Sidewalks where I live is rare.

The Provincial Gov’t is corrupt, to win two parties combined against the conservatives at the last moment, after voting, to have a house majority of 1! The Liberal and Green Party.

Lots of good happens in Vancouver also, the sea wall is a must.

Fraser Valley – Horse country. Drive around people have acres and every second house you’ll see horses.

Campbell Valley park , and Stanley park. The area is amazing. Horse trails too.”


“High cost of housing, to a large extent driven up by absentee Chinese speculators, has driven up real estate prices to the extent that most Canadians can’t afford to live there, even if they work in Vancouver. They have to commute from suburbs, often an 45 minutes to an hour each way. The downtown eastside is disgusting, dirty, full of homeless people and druggies. It’s so full of foreigners that it doesn’t even seem like a Canadian city anymore…it’s not the city I recall from the late 70s and 80s.”


“Traffic is hellish, and drugs are becoming a real problem in the Downtown Eastside. But the real problem is housing, both the exorbitant cost and the general lack of availability. Finally, certain areas such as Surrey and Abbotsford are experiencing unprecedented levels of gang violence. Don’t get me wrong: the situation generally does not impact the general public, but shootings are occurring with disturbing frequency.”


“it is extremely expensive rents are very high food gas cell phones everything is the highest in the world here.The traffic is horrendous and crappy transit unless you live in the city.Huge rich asian population the have and the have nots basically.Plus it rains a lot ,the city has no charismatic soul, other than that its great.”



Feel free to add your comments. Are Vancouverites dull? Compare these comments to other rantings and see how passionless they really arecan’t even be roused to anger.

British Columbia: Rants

Since people want a place to vent about B.C., here it is – feel free to comment! It really sucks that the rest of the country is such a shit hole that you have to move to B.C. to cope. You move here and it costs a fortune to live (mostly in dumps), Vancouver is a gloom-hole that’s too expensive to survive and glorified as the only ‘livable’ place in Canada. What a nightmare. What a fucking nightmare.

“I’d like to comment on BC, and racism. In the Fraser Valley, BC, you’ll see some of the most disgusting displays of racism. Take Abbotsford, BC for example. On the west side the public schools are nearly 99.9% Punjabi. Why? because the white people figured out they can move to the east side of town. Or, the white people (the Dutch and the Mennonite) put their children in their own schools. Now, the fault is firmly on the shoulders of the public school district, which built beautiful, newer schools on the “white” side of town. They allowed the problem to grow and fester and grow and fester until it’s virtually intractable to fix. How depressing and sad for “multicultural” Canada that we are all carved up into our ethnic groups like this.

Also, is it not incredibly racist to see the Chinese as only dollar signs? To invite people from a communist country to come over and buy up all your real estate? This is of course colonialism–where those with the most money get to buy up the land. So, while there is some poetic justice for the “cakers” sadly the Indigenous are just going to continue to be dragged down with the rest. What a joke Truth and Reconciliation is! Wouldn’t it be more honest just to let the Indigenous know they don’t stand a chance? I mean that at least would take some courage. Then the Indigenous would know exactly where they stand.”


I’d also like to comment on how BC got itself in such trouble with the Chinese/China. (And think about, for a moment, the sad state of the education system in BC. The choice schools are so filled with international students, coz they come with the money honey, that local smart kids can’t even get spots! Some districts have signed ‘Aboriginal Enhancement Agreements’ but try holding those districts to their word and getting your own super smart kid into an excellent school. Fat chance!) Back to the Chinese–the “cakers” thought they were “smarter than” the Chinese. They thought they would know if they were being taken advantage of because white people are inherently smarter than the Chinese! How stupid! How completely stupid and foolish to think that you are smarter than an imperialist country that has existed for 4,000+ years, and is just coming out of Communism. As if that was ever going to end well for Vancouver. And even when the LOCAL Chinese Canadians were calling it out–they turned it on them and accused people of colour of being RACIST against the Chinese! Nice one “cakers”–smart. 

Canada is 150 years old and it’s still doing business as it always has–exploiting the land, exploiting its people, and chasing the dollar. Now, wouldn’t it be something if we actually had VALUES in this place? Where we valued our children, where we built great schools–oh yes, our schools are just crap right now. They emptied out the city of Vancouver and drove everyone out to the Fraser Valley–so the Valley’s schools are filled to the brim. And the housing continues to be built with no planning–no new schools being built. No new parks. Money, money, money, money. And you ask local Canadian people to speak out. To fight. It’s always crickets. Always. I feel so sad for this country. I worry about the future of my own children here.


“How about how they killed off the natural diversity of the forests, making deals with Monsanto, and killing off all the trees like aspens that are natural forest fire guards? So now, we can’t even enjoy our summers because we are drowning in smoke. (Note one Canadian who has true values, visit the site stopthespraybc.com, Mr. James Steidle is giving up all his time and risking his safety to expose the disgusting mismanagement of BC forests.) Now, to be fair Washington state and California are also killing off all the natural diversity in their forests that work to keep the forest healthy and help to repel forest fires naturally. But you’d think BC would understand that the one thing we should take very, very, very good care of is our forests. But nope, the kill off any trees that aren’t seen as having dollar signs attached to them. And, as the kill off the natural biodiversity, there is less food for the wildlife to eat–animals like moose are dying off. So, for Canadians to claim they value their natural landscape is really silly, isn’t it? As for the rain, if you learn to see it as nourishing the beautiful woods, then it can be beautiful. But it’s hard to love the rain if you hate everything else. I think really for BC the problem is more the corruption, which makes everything seem grey.”


“I have to say I am really impressed by anyone who comes here as a newcomer (I’m assuming you’re a newcomer?) and cares about the state of the Natives. Again, this is something Canada has down a TERRIBLE job on. See, it is WRONG to invite people in and invite them to settle on land that is basically stolen, whilst pretending as a nation that we are “doing” Truth and Reconciliation. For example, how many Chinese millionaires are educated on their way into Canada that they are buying land in Vancouver that is unceded? None are, of course–and millionaires don’t tend to really care if they are settling on stolen land, right? They’re like, I paid for this land so how dare you tell me it’s stolen. But if Canada truly valued justice, it could try to attract newcomers who care about values, justice, and true multiculturalism. But really, Canada is just trying to attract newcomers with money. This is very dangerous because regardless of cultural backgrounds, we are all human–and humans who really care about money tend to just really care about money. Thus, unless we have more newcomers like the author of this blog–like dude, you totally get social justice, we need more people like you–well, I don’t see much hope for Canada.”


“Okay, on Chilliwack. Do you know about the draining of Sumas Lake? If not google it, lots on it online. But basically Sumas prairie was once a beautiful lake–a lake the Sumas people based their lives upon. It was their food source and also their source of transportation. Well, when the Dutch/Mennonites came they decided they would use their talents for draining things to drain that lake. “They” (meaning the Brits and the Mennos/Dutch) all “voted” and decided this would be a great idea. The Sumas people thought it couldn’t be done–but oh, it was done. And in fact, to this day the lake water is drained into canals. They exposed fertile farmland. And, they got VERY rich off that fertile farmland–I believe they purchased that fertile farmland for VERY cheap. The Sumas people wept and wept–they watch fish flap and die. They saw their way of life literally drain away. I’m not sure if they have yet to be adequately compensated. But really, what compensation would ever be enough?”

“Next time you drive out to Chilliwack think about that sad story. Ironically, of course, every few years there are worries about Sumas prairie FLOODING. Because, of course, it’s meant to be a LAKE. This only happened in about 1920. If you tell locals about it some of them will say things like, “Oh yeah, that was my grandfather who helped drain that lake–it was amazing what we did.” They still don’t get how BAD it is that they did that.”


Canada is a Shit Hole

I would love to live in Europe but unfortunately I don’t qualify for long-term residence, maybe in the future. So for now I content myself with going to the USA – a place I can appreciate despite its many issues. The United States is large and diverse enough that life is what you make it. Unfortunately (as I know well from personal experience) the same cannot be said for Canada.

I am constantly bombarded with fear mongering about the USA. It’s as though Canadians can’t fathom that there are more living options than the rough neighborhoods in Chicago, Baltimore or south-central Los Angeles. The absurdity of the anti-American propaganda is indescribable. Yes there are some bad people down there, and terrible things do happen, but they also happen here. So let’s take a look at some “Canadian” living

Canada’s three major cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver) house more than a third of the population. Outside these locations the majority of Canadians live in small cities and towns; less than 1 in 5 live in rural areas. 

For 2018 the most dangerous places are listed by MacLean’s magazine, rated according to the Crime Severity Index:

1) North Battleford, Saskatchewan (pop: 13,567)

2) Thompson, Manitoba (pop: 12,878)

3) Wetaskiwin, Alberta (pop: 12,486)

4) Prince Albert & area, Saskatchewan (pop: 35,102)

5) Portage la Prairie, Manitoba (pop: 12,949)

6) Red Deer, Alberta (pop: 99,718)

7) Williams Lake, British Columbia (pop: 10,508)

8) Quesnel, British Columbia (pop: 12,064)

9) Langley, British Columbia (pop: 117,285)

10) Prince George, British Columbia (pop: 65,510)

[Note: population data taken from latest government census reports available (2016). Current stats should be roughly equivalent.]

In 2017, the five worst cities by crime rate were:

5) Edmonton: “The city has had a persistent problem with violent crime, especially sex-based crimes such as sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, and sexual violations against children.”

4) Regina: “Regina, ranks rather highly (or lowly, depending on how you look at it) when it comes to overall violent crime in Canada.  It’s been trading places with Saskatoon the past few years …”

3) Saskatoon: “The city has flipped back and forth with Regina (see above) in the overall rankings, and has sometimes even found itself at the ignominious “top” of the standings.”

2) Thunder Bay: “While it ranks eighth in overall crime, the CBC reported that it’s the second-most violent city in Canada.  Sadly, that rating isn’t a one-off incident, either.  In 2012, the homicide rate was higher in Thunder Bay than in any other major metropolitan area in Canada.”

1) Winnipeg: “… but for all of that, the notorious neighbourhoods which make up the North-Central portion of Winnipeg, from South Point Douglas to West Broadway, reported double the crime rate of Compton, California in 2012.”

In 2016, the most dangerous cities according to MacLean’s: (Crime Severity Index)

1. Grande Prairie, Alta. (pop: 63,166)

2. Victoria, B.C. (pop: 84,289)
3. Red Deer, Alta. (pop: 100,418)
4. Prince George, B.C. (pop: 65,510)
5. Winnipeg, Man. (pop: 709,253)
6. Saskatoon, Sask. (pop: 254,569)
7. Fort McMurray, Alta. (pop: 61,374)
8. Thunder Bay, Ont. (pop: 110,984)
9. Surrey, BC (pop: 498,720)
10. Edmonton, Alta. (pop: 928,182)

Over half are at about 100k people or less! “Safe Canada?” Not so much.

There was only one article on the subject in the Canadian Encyclopedia. Aside from Detroit’s significantly higher homicide rate, it had this to say:

“We fare no better than the U.S. in other areas. The break and enter rates in Chilliwack, B.C., Victoria and Regina, for instance, rank within the top 10 per cent of all American cities.

The per capita robbery rates in Saskatoon, Winnipeg and Regina would put them among the top 10 robbery-plagued metropolitan areas of the U.S. And you are far more likely to have your automobile stolen in Winnipeg or Joliette, Que., than anywhere in the U.S., including metropolitan Detroit and Las Vegas, the auto theft capitals of America.

Even at that, a crime analysis this January by the Vancouver Board of Trade concludes official rates are misleadingly low: “only about one-third of actual crimes in Canada are reported to police.”

At the time the article was written the most dangerous cities in the country were listed as: Regina, Saskatoon and Winnipeg, followed by Prince George, Edmonton, New Westminster (pop: 70,996), Chilliwack (pop: 83,788), Victoria (pop: 84,289), Vancouver and Halifax (pop: 414,129). And I’m quoting fairly recent population statistics, these locations would’ve been even less populated at the time.

When we skip back to 2010, Maclean’s said the most dangerous were:

1 Prince George, B.C.
2 Victoria, B.C. 
3 Regina, Sask. 
4 Saskatoon, Sask. 
5 Fort McMurray, Alta. 
6 Kelowna, B.C. (pop: 179,839)
7 Grande Prairie, Alta.
8 Surrey, B.C. 
9 Chilliwack, B.C. 
10 Winnipeg, Man. 
11 Red Deer, Alta. 
12 Nanaimo, B.C. (pop: 83,810) 
13 Edmonton, Alta. 
14 New Westminster, B.C.(pop: 65,976)
15 Belleville, Ont. (pop: 92,540)

Again, most of these places barely scraping the 100k mark

You can view a documentary on missing women from the
‘Highway of Tears’ regions.

The film includes Vanderhoof, a small northern community of less than 5,000 people. Vanderhoof is a great example of the real Canada:

In 2012, two men murdered a woman there. In 2013, at least two people were murdered there. In 2014, a serial killer born and raised there was sentenced for the murders of four women in the region. In 2015, three Vanderhoof locals were charged with that year’s first murder in nearby Prince George. In 2016, two people were sentenced for the murder and beheading of a local man. In 2018 a local man was murdered in a hotel. 

And as a report from Statistics Canada makes clear: children and youth are in more danger in small towns, rural areas and minor cities than in Canada’s most populated centers (family and non-familial violence).

So the only halfway decent places (by Canadian standards) worth living in are Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal and Calgary. But trust me, I’ll be getting around to a post on these last three

I walked around inebriated in numerous Los Angeles neighborhoods, alone, and felt far safer than I have in many places in shit hole Canada. (The people were far nicer too, even the ‘undesirables’.)


It’s a cold, boring, violent, stagnant place with all of America’s problems, racism, violence and crime – yet none of the benefits of living in such a diverse, interesting place filled with passionate people. Canadians are smug about “safe” Canada … delusional as usual.

2020 update

Most dangerous (and population):

  1. Thompson, Manitoba (13,678)
  2. North Battleford, Saskatchewan (14,315)
  3. Portage la Prairie, Manitoba (13,000)
  4. Prince Albert & area, Saskatchewan (43,000)
  5. Quesnel, British Columbia (23,000)
  6. Wetaskiwin, Alberta (12,655)
  7. Selkirk, Manitoba (10,278)
  8. Terrace, British Columbia (11,643)
  9. Williams Lake, British Columbia (10,753)
  10. Timmins, Ontario (41,788)

None of the top 10 have made the 100k pop mark – way to go Canada! Let’s take a look at the next 10:

Prince Rupert, B.C. (11,733) / Kenora & Area, ON (15,096) / Winnipeg, MB (749,534) / Thunder Bay & area, ON (121, 621) / Yorkton, SK (19,643) / New Glasgow, NS (9,075) / Port Alberni, B.C. (18,000) / Fort St. John, B.C. (21,000) / Prince George, B.C. (81,345) / Greater Napanee, ON (15,892).

And two places made it over the 100k mark! Check back in 5 years for more of the same.

Refuge in BC? Not Quite.

As I go through the process of covering the country, one idea presents itself: taking refuge in B.C. from the inept backwardness of the rest of the nation. This is a pretty common idea among desperate cakers. But B.C. itself isn’t all that pretty when you glimpse beneath the surface.

I’ve already covered the Thompson-Okanagan, and will get to Vancouver and area soon enough.

When people speak of moving to B.C., they almost always mean the Lower Mainland, Greater Vancouver Area or possibly Van island. Most people forget that at least half the province (“north”) is as bad as anywhere else they’re fleeing from.

Not only is it subject to the same terrible winter weather as the other provinces, but it can also boast of terrible poverty, redneck towns, and staggering levels of ineptitude. Having personally lived in northern British Columbia I can tell you it’s as awful as anywhere else.

Let’s begin with some shit town communities.

We’ll start with
Prince George:

It’s the largest city in northern B.C. with a population of just over 70,000 people. A few years back it made it into Maclean’s magazine as Canada’s most dangerous city (a title it held for three years), although by 2016 it had dropped to third place.

21% of children there are living in poverty and over half of single parents are living below the poverty line. The minimum wage is $12.65/hour despite the ‘living wage’ being nearly $17/hour; and (according to a government study) 65% of studied residents were either on social assistance or disability.

Nearby on Highway 16 – known as the Highway of Tears – women (up to 40, according to some groups) have been going missing for decades. There are probably multiple serial killers at work. It’s been argued that little has been done since most of the victims are Aboriginal. And in classic B.C. corruption, whistle-blower Tim Duncan claims emails pertaining to the issue were deleted (he calls the B.C. government a “cesspool”).

Let’s move on to some other shit towns. How about Smithers? A town of less than 6000 people with almost no vacancy rate; an average rental is $750/month; no proper services or access to them. There is limited employment and most people can’t afford to travel anywhere. Basically, a typical northern B.C. town.

How about Hazelton? The village and surrounding district has 627 residents. See: same issues as before, but worse: a poverty rate of 80%. The town’s biggest news and “hope for the future”? An outdoor hockey rink.

What about Vanderhoof? A town with a population less than 5000 people. And more of the usual for B.C.: a nearly 20% “low income” rate; 10% unemployment rate; about 90% of people have to drive. See: same issues as noted above. Women regularly go missing or wind up murdered, and a local serial killer was sentenced a few years ago.

How about Prince Rupert? Its population is just over 13,000 and on the decline. It had a child-poverty rate of 30% in 2016. See: same issues again.

Let’s try Dawson Creek, a city of just under 13,000 people. Like most work in the north (B.C. and elsewhere) the majority of employment is through extraction and a lot of the industry is going to shit. Again, close to 20% of children are living in poverty. See: here we go again.

I could write about another ten shit towns, but why bother? Surely you get the point by now?

Overall, 1 in 5 children live in poverty and it’s been that way for years. As of 2017, it was the second-worst province for child poverty. The province only just now passed a poverty reduction plan/legislation – half assed, as per usual. 

Its affordability is classed as “severe” and is the least affordable of the provinces (generally speaking) for housing and rentals. The average home price is $700k or more. 

The takeway:

Half of British Columbia is encompassed by the “north” which is a collection of barely populated cities and shit towns where unemployment, poverty, and violence are abundant. A lack of proper transit forces people to hitchhike or pay absurd costs to travel. There’s a fair chance if you take risks while travelling you could be killed by serial killers. (With Greyhound stopping its services in Western Canada, there is now no reliable transport in the North – particularly along the ‘Highway of Tears’.)

The main sources of employment are extraction industries, and whenever clean energy comes into use those jobs will be wiped out and northern B.C. will become more of a wasteland than it already is. There’s nothing to see, nowhere to go, no money to get there; a lot of boredom and despair.

The Okanagan is unaffordable except for the wealthy few and has become a cesspool of drug trafficking, addiction and crime. 

Vancouver is extremely expensive and just below Toronto in costs of living. Overall, B.C. is the most expensive place to live despite having a lower minimum wage than four other provinces, and rate close to a couple others. B.C. is jokingly referred to as “Bring Cash”. 

Welcome to B.C., Canada … ! 

Highway of Tears


This is a CBS piece on the missing women from the “Highway of Tears” (Highway 16) in British Columbia. In 40 years authorities have only solved a handful of murders. Although it’s tempting to picture a lone diabolical killer, in all practical reality there are multiple serial killers at work. The police list the number of official cases at just under 20 victims, but advocate groups say it’s double that number or more.

More fun in British Columbia. I’ve lived in northern B.C. and it’s a hell hole full of pedophiles, rapists, hillbillies and other general weirdoes, to put it generously. (Don’t forget the Mennonites.)

I’ve been on this highway plenty of times, and once got a ride with a trucker who I could’ve sworn was one of the killers (I say that based on his general demeanor and the way he talked about missing women). Nothing, and I mean nothing about the north or this shit hole country would surprise me any more.

For all the moaning and gasping about “dangerous America”, you’ll note that most crime, and violent crime at that – happens in Canada’s smallest cities and communities.

The Okanagan: lipstick on a pig

The Thompson-Okanagan in British Columbia is one of the most overrated places in the country. Due to its warm summer weather and wineries it has branded itself as “Canada’s California” but is far from it.

We start with Kelowna.

Kelowna is a small city with a population just over 120,000. It’s very white: only 4.5% of the population is Aboriginal, and the visible minority group has risen to 7.6%.

During my time there, overhearing racial slurs was a nearly daily reality. Bumper stickers containing 88 or SS bolts (white supremacist symbols) were abundant and I saw them in traffic every day.

The small number of Aboriginal people appeared non-existent as most of them lived on a reserve outside of town. I don’t recall ever seeing or meeting a single Black Canadian there, although this seems to have marginally improved if the town’s homemade “rap videos” are any indication. The only time I heard of them (visiting) was when they were being threatened, called epithets, left notes to “go home” or muttered about behind their backs.

Crazy Christians

A large segment of the population is religious and old-fashioned. These conservative Christians frown upon being gay, being non-religious, being non-Christian, sex before marriage, and basically any ideas or values formed after the 1950s. According to statistics, over 58% of residents claim a religious affiliation – virtually all Christian. Nearly three-quarters of couples are married.

K-Town summed up

Kelowna can be divided into the following groups: hardcore Christians, the wealthy retired, the elderly, rich youth, Hell’s Angels and other criminal elements; the poor and addicted.

Retired & Old

It’s a popular retirement location: nearly 20% of residents are over 65. Catering to the retired and elderly fills a large portion of the city’s employment and funding as they are now the top demographic.


When I lived there it was well known that the Hell’s Angels “ran the town”. At the time other gangs were trying to muscle in. Nearby my quiet home next to a vineyard, an Asian gang member was arrested with an ear inside his pocket he’d kept as a souvenir. Such was life in “peaceful” Kelowna. Matters remain the same today in the city’s underbelly: whether it’s HA members beating a man to death, ongoing legal issues over clubhouses, cocaine smuggling operations, or more, the status quo continues. (In the early 2010s, Kelowna was among the most dangerous cities listed in Canada, but this appears to have improved in recent years.)


One comment said it best when describing Kelowna as “ostentatious luxury next to stark poverty“. It has become a town for the well-to-do. People with money retire there and live comfortably; their children and grandchildren grow up wealthy, not needing to work and treat others with disdain and contempt.

The Okanagan Living Wage report stated: “To make ends meet, a nuclear family in the Okanagan needs to bring in an annual income of just under $70,000.” The living wage is calculated to be $21.00/hour.

As absurd as it seems, anyone earning under that amount can essentially expect to live in poverty or at least uncomfortably as they struggle to make ends meet and survive. While Kelowna may look fun from afar or on vacation, it’s hell for those who aren’t wealthy. They can expect low-paying jobs, no advancement opportunities, serving the rich, and NOT partaking in any of the fun activities on display – which they can’t afford.

For example, despite the living wage, over 49% of residents had an income lower than $27,000. Nearly half that number had an income of less than $12,000. Only 44% worked a full-time job all year.


The city continues to have terrible drug problems: addicts and the homeless congregating downtown, sleeping in beaches and parks, and committing crimes. It’s regularly the number one drug capital in Canada for heroin and cocaine, and among the top of the list for other drugs. In 2017 it was fourth in all of British Columbia for illicit drug deaths.

Conclusion: Overblown

For all the raving about Kelowna, here is what you get: a small city in the interior with limited employment, absurd living costs, plenty of drugs and crime, a warm summer and a LAKE.

Yes, that’s it. All this hype for two things: a lake and warm summers. The lake is enjoyable, but most people can’t afford to buy or rent a boat to enjoy it. Summer days are hot (which can be terrible in the backlogged, horrendous traffic jams) and the nights are mild, warm, and comfortable – which is great. But that’s it. Its winters are fairly mild, but they still have snow and cold – hardly “California”.

So if you live any place with a relatively mild winter, beside a large lake, you are living the equivalent of K-Town life for a quarter of the cost and hassle. Almost all of Kelowna’s “activities” revolve around the lake, downtown bars and the drug scene (all of which you can find anywhere else). I can say personally that I loathed my time there, and consider its residents among the worst people I’ve ever met, rivaled only by Ottawa.

See: Kelowna Rants (enjoy the videos at the end).

Moving on we come to Vernon, which is about an hour’s drive north from Kelowna.

Vernon is a little dump town with a population of just over 40,000 people. Anecdotally, I can tell you that Vernon actually scares me because not once have I met a normal, well-adjusted person from that place. If ever there was a creepy, little hillbilly town hidden away and filled with inbred rednecks, Vernon is it! Imagine all of the problems of Kelowna, without the one benefit: the lake downtown. The only thing it really has going for it is a nearby ski mountain resort.

Other fun facts according to the last census:

Over 20% of residents are 65 or older. Median age is 47. The last time information was compiled it showed: 4.6% visible minority population; 5.5% Aboriginals; and 90% white. Unsurprisingly, racism is an issue in Vernon too, with lots of proud confederate-flag waving racists. (I’m not sure what confederates in the southern U.S. have to do with a hick town in B.C., but who said it has to make sense?)

Like Kelowna, it is a car town with terrible transit (85% of residents drive); the last stated unemployment rate was nearly 10%; over 17% of families are low-income, and housing is unaffordable for most people (source). I can guarantee things are much worse than is publicly-known, but it’s difficult to get information since it’s a small shit town and it’s rarely compiled.

Drugs and crime continue to spiral. In 2017, small creepy Vernon was listed as one of the top ten most dangerous places in Canada, although this had dropped to 24th by 2018 – still staggering for a city of less than 40,000, compared to the entire country. There were over 300 drug overdoses in 2017 as well. 

At last we come to Penticton:

It’s about an hour’s drive south of Kelowna, and has a population of just over 40,000 people. Over a quarter of its residents are aged 64 or older. We have the same story as before: 9% unemployment rate; over 70% of couples are married; employment is crap: most jobs are low skill and pay minimum wage, farm workers make barely above that. Again: 80% of residents drive; almost 19% are “low-income”, the ‘visible minority’ and Aboriginal populations combined total 11.5%, and 90% of the population is white.

Penticton is a cute little town with some nice beaches by the lake. You can stand on a hill and basically see the entire town from start to finish. Its residents are marginally better than Kelowna and Vernon. However, crime has begun to increase and was the highest in the Okanagan Valley in 2017. It’s listed in the top 20 most dangerous places in Canada, again.

So this is the Okanagan in a nutshell. Sure, there are plenty of other little shit towns sprinkled around, but they’re so small they aren’t worth writing about, and nobody who requires employment or has a family is going to move there due to lack of resources. It’s simply the same people who were born and raised there who stay and will die there. End of.

Canada’s “California”? Hardly (unless you mean the drug trafficking and crime) !

The takeaway:

The Okanagan is white, expensive, and over-hyped. If you move there expect to be broke, struggling, hurting for work, and treated like human trash by the rich scumbags who have retired there. You can’t even enjoy the ‘benefits’ of small city living because the place is chalk full of bikers, various warring gangs, drug trafficking and more. God forbid you aren’t white – you will be a virtual pariah. The same goes for being non-religious (if your social group doesn’t include bikers and drug traffickers). You will basically have the worst of every world and have settled for it all because of a lake. Enjoy!

Victoria: Rants

While I’ve been on Vancouver Island a fair amount, I admit I’ve never lived there. One thing that’s surprised me is hearing about how much people from across the country hate Victoria! Whether they moved from Ottawa, Calgary, Toronto … people seem to despise this little island city. I keep hearing the same complaints repeatedly, so read for yourself:

“I moved here 4 years ago with my family from Ontario with the hopes of having a better lifestyle and unlimited opportunity. You would think on a smaller Island as beautiful as Victoria that the people who be more appreciative and maybe a little nicer, but what we and hundreds of other outsiders found is that the people here are colder than a praries winter. They are over-priveledged, anti social, self proclaimed and sadly lacking anything resembling social skills. Because of unrealistic real estate prices homeowners have experienced wealth that is unheard of in any other part of the country. In a nutshell the people here suck. The place is beautiful but the pretty beaches and the trees do not make up for the Islands lack of personality. It is overpriced so every other person has to build suites in thier homes so they can afford to put a roof over thier heads. They are jamming homes in every nook and cranny to accommodate the lack of affordable housing, leaving people permanently strapped and living off of credit pretending they actually have money. The health system here sucks and where else do you have to pay to have your garbage picked up.

I am happy for those of you that are from here and have family but if any of you are planning on moving here without your family being there to help out with kids and whatnot, don’t bother unless you have tons of extra cash to over pay for it. For those of us that wanted to come here and start a new life I want to say that the Island is like a giant high school with cliques that never let you in, that will take 20 years to ever penetrate. My advice is to not give up your real family and friends for the crap that the Island offers and come here on vacation only, that way you are buying something from the shallow personalityless Islanders that will only be nice to you if you are buying something from them.

I will be glad to leave this Island and I feel dumber for having been on it.


“No, Victoria is not a nice place to live beyond the propaganda. Dig a little deeper. The general cultural attitude is cold, aloof, dead inside, uptight, socially cliquey, standoffish, mentally stupid, inefficient, lacking of any common sense, slow, cheap, poor, backward, insane, self delusional, and lots more. They will try to trick you with how great the weather and environment is. Victoria is probably the only place on Earth with any beautiful environment?

Most of the jobs in Victoria BC are stingy paying, slave driving, perhaps even abusive, and don’t recognize your talents. Low or high end jobs don’t matter as they will pay you 25-33% less wage for the same work as cities and provinces outside of British Columbia, where they reward and value skills. You will get squeezed with cheap wages, and high housing, living costs at both ends. It gets worst as the upward mobility job prospects in Victoria BC are limited and limiting. Many Victoria students and locals leave and go work in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, South America, Asia, Europe, others in order to make big money and then maybe afford a Victoria house to buy. The joke local job market is a waste of time and life. Don’t leave the prosperity of Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, etc for the monotony of Victoria. Many outside and local people say Victoria is over rated and move elsewhere in order to succeed. It seems the only prosperous Victorians are those who inherited old money wealth, or do big business in the rest of the world and then spend the wealth there. The lifer local Victorians are usually ignorant, poor, pissed off, and blocked. A friend referred to Victoria as the biggest outdoor insane asylum. 


“Victoria has all the resources and people to become just as prosperous and opportunistic as Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Ottawa, Quebec City, Montreal, Saskatoon, Regina, etc. The restricted, restrictive Victorian mental, social attitude keeps getting in the way of adventure, broad mindedness, and prosperity. Victoria region can climb high and go farther if it can get its inefficient disjointed, confusing, frustrating crap policies in order. The public and private sectors in Victoria are equally mental.


“Run for the hill as fast as you can is my advice to anyone considering a move or relocation to Victoria. Oh, the holiday visit leaves you feeling like it could be a nice place to live, but THINK again. It is so boring there, the people are MINDLESS, void of any real personality, crap jobs, crappy salaries, all broke, no excitment of life in the air, just dead!

Run to the East my friend, you will be happier. People from the East are rooted and so normal and friendly, real people, no air of snobbery about them like the Vics.


“I know many ex victorians who moved to Ontario and Alberta to make better money and actually have a wealthier life. The ones who stayed behind in Vic BC are depressed, angry, frustrated, and these ones are the ones from the wealthier families. The ones from the poorer families can add destitute and desperate to the list. All those friendly Victorians you see are just superficially acting in front of your face. The true happy people in Victoria are the visitors; the locals are very artificial and superficial.


“Victoria wages are sub par low and various living expenses are above par extortionary high because the owners and managers, all the decision makers know and hope the docile sheeple won’t uncover their dirty ways and stand up. The place looks and behaves like a life sized experiment lab in mass social manipulation and control for the NWO. It is probably a society template for the future global world gradually being made even now?


“I’ve lived in Victoria for my whole life. It’s super boring here. I probably won’t live here in the future.


“I not saying Victoria is always 100% shitty to live in. The upward mobility in job prospests, social, wealth really sucks in Victoria because of the public and private sector entrenched cheap, restrictive attitudes. Paying peanuts hires you monkeys. The only reason why I stay in this city is because my family owns apartment building real estate worth about 20 years of a government manager’s wages, in any place. I am not poor, only frustrated and bored. If this frustration happens to me and my well to do comfortable friends, what chances are there for other Victoria people lower down the social economic ladder? My friends and I can’t make it on our own in Victoria and our families’ wealth is keeping up afloat. In Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Ottawa, etc, that could be different.


“Thirty yeara ago Victoria Was a Beautiful place to live then the east moved west and turned Victoria into a Concrete jungle. Roads are now wall to wall parking lots. Real estate has plumpeted to a price my grandchildren will never be able to afford. If you don’t like Viotoria then yoou are to blame. Please go back where you came from and let us return to the beautiful city we onse had


“It’s a common subject in Victoria and it doesn’t matter who you work for or what you work as. Your schooling and experience doesn’t matter to the brain dead local employers as they don’t want to pay market pay. The screw up low quality staff they do have either quit or get fired for big mess ups, or they gang up bully you if you are too good and make them look bad. Even if all these BS things don’t happen to you at one of the crappy Victoria jobs, you are going to get over worked and under paid anyway. It is not just one or few jobs that destroys your soul, it is the entire Victosria region. There are few good job, or any jobs that compensates and treats you properly


“Sure Victoria is a nice place to live, if you are independently wealthy and don’t need to depend on anyone else for anything. The place really sucks if you need to work for others to live and must go through life kissing their ass, licking their boots. then it isn’t so nice for you.


“I am not born but raised in Victoria. I must agree with a lot of the negative posts on here. I am 37, well educated and STRUGGLE to make ends meet. Rent is WAY too high for a dump of a basement suite. It is VERY closed off and hard to break the barrier of social realm. I am tired, depressed, and pissed off…and reading this have me going home a packing my car and catching the next ferry out. OH! In case you are considering on moving to the island? Watch out for the ferries, it will soon cost you $400.00 ROUND trip with one car and passenger on the ferries. So essentially you are stranded on “the rock” as we call it here, because is like Alcatraz, you can never get off. You will be stuck fighting for survival, while the baby boomers reap your blood sweat and tears. They will never give it up!


“Victoria and Vancouver Island is like social, economic, cultural drug, JUST SAY NO! If you get hooked into moving to the island and Victoria, you will be frustrated beyond belief is various ways. If you are not yet on the island and BC’s capital city, it is best for your peace of mind, happiness, and sanity to continue to be elsewhere. Even those already here yearn for the opportunity and resources to leave. Even the crappy jobs in Calgary pay more wages than the crappy jobs in Victoria. The good jobs would pay even more.


“Even the weather isn’t as good as people say it is. People in the east seem to think we’ve got some sort of semi-tropical paradise here,and we actually have a pretty lousy climate. Sure, we had a good summer this year, our first decent one in about 5 years, but most of the time it’s cloudy, windy, raining, or just plain depressing.


“Read the rest of the comments On Victoria on this site. You can and should visit Victoria for a short vacation. I stress VISIT Victoria, not give up everyone to move to Victoria. Others who moved long term to Victoria ended up moving back to their original city because the Victoria culture is dumb down, broke ass poor, anti success, and very uptight and restrictive. Only relocate to Victoria long term if your love poverty, lack of opportunities, stupid people, and being trapped on an island prison.


“Victoria wouldn’t suck so much if people could actually make something of their lives living in Victoria. Unfortunately, the local employers are too, greedy, cheap, unappreciative, clueless, and sometimes even abusive. You will never be able to afford a car, house, vacation, or any excitement living here. You and your kids will end moving out of here back to your home town to work and go to school. It is dead end here.


“Don’t get yourself sold an inferior lemon. Always do some research on the internet before you say yes to any deal. You are the second person who was saved from moving their entire life to Victoria, on these Victoria blog forums. The other guy was prevented from moving his entire family and work from Toronto to Victoria. He decided to go to Sidney Australia instead. Knowledge is power.


“Many locals and clueless newbies from other places thought Victoria would be a golden land of opportunity. That isn’t the case. After the stark reality settled, then it became a matter of attempting to “escape from Vancouver Island”. They could probably make a zombie apocalypse, survival horror, adventure movie with the same title, based on reality?


“I have a friend who say the wages and employment situation in Victoria genrerally sucks. He also imports his dates and lovers from outside of Victoria, Vancouver Island and outside BC if possible. He feels the Victorian attitude in work, dating, and life is very uptight, cold, closed minded, superficial, backward, soul less, and just straight up crazy. Victorians lack passion, a pulse, common sense, alertness, attractiveness, charisma. Most of them look and behave like they are at a funeral for zombies. Calling Victorians dead fish would be insulting to the fish. Tourist see only the superficial surface and think the city is so wonderful after only 2 weeks. Lving in Victoria and working, living there for years will change your mind quick.


“The cheap, abusive, clueless Victoria region job market and economy is making me into a bored, blocked, and dead inside zombie. The social culture is very stuck up, cold, cliquey, unfriendly, very superficial. I have no idea how some people can call Victoria a long term home, unless they are drunk, unconscious, or drugged up permanently. Most of the people (employers, associates, strangers) act through their lives as if they have no passion, soul, personality, or intelligence. Everyone is snotty, repressed, constipated, dull, gloomy like they are at a funeral.


“Look friend, there isn’t any web site blog that only has positive comments on how wonderful Victoria is to live in. The blogs may have a few good comments on Victoria, but they appear weak, superficial, insubstantial and sound more like propaganda slogans. Face the truth, Victoria is one culturally dumb and messed up place in general. I was born a Victorian and I can compare it to other cities all over the world. I’m qualified to judge. The place is a rust bucket dead beat car no matter how many mag wheels, car wax, car toys you try to add to it; it’s not going to look and act like a pimp my ride


“Victoria is OK to relocate to if you are at the bottom hole in your life. You have nothing left to lose. Most people wouldn’t go there to live a restricted life (financial, social, mental health) of below average contentment if they knew the whole truth. The glitzy surface advertising is intended to lull you into a false sense of belief, make something more than it is. The reality when you arrive is something else. Definitely check out http://www.ratemyemployer.ca when you attempt to apply for Victoria jobs because many of the bad employers are Victoria based. Don’t get conned like some of the other workers before you.


“The opportunities to rise and improve yourself is mostly limited. Greater Victoria feels like a 5 thing town. You can only do the same 5 limited things in an ever repeating loop, day after day,week after week, month after month, year after year until you die. Employment and social opportunities are the craps, there are many crappy things to follow. Why do you think Victorians look and behave like zombies? They all had their souls and happiness, ambitions and dreams, sucked out of them. Most of them are trapped on Vancouver Island and they know it! Starring at the same prison walls long term would make even a sane, social person weird.


“Is Victoria a nice place to live, is the question? No! There are many reasons why and the marketing propaganda types will not tell you and try to cover it up. People who live in Victoria or those formerly living in Victoria are your best sources of insider information. Listen to them as it can save you a lot of frustration and disappointment.

Don’t waste your time and money. The big picture is the whole of Greater Victoria is a left socialist wonder fantasy land. There is hardly any opportunities economically, everyone cheap and poor, skills and experiences won’t get you jobs other cities would love to hire you for, at a much better wage too. Locals turn down oil industries that could make this place as rich as Alberta due to socialist pipedreams of ideal worlds. Basically, Victoria is poor, restrictive, and dopey in terms of economy, social life, cultural attitudes and behaviour. Forget your dreams here when you check them in at the entrance.


“The Victoria contradictory nutty culture is the base of everything else that you could ever encounter in life. That’s not a very good stable foundation to build everything else on top. Watch, observe, interact carefully and you will notice overt or covert signs of group insanity at work. You want to go left but turn right. Yes is no and no is yes. They want and should decide on something and end up not deciding on anything. It should be fast and results are slow. They should drive their cars on a green light but run a red light instead. They want good, efficient, quality and choose cheap, dumpy, and incompetent. These are just some brief examples.


“I like to warn people who are comtemplating moving their entire life to Victoria BC, that they need to think things over very carefully. All the negatives they would find in other major Canadian cities are even more concentrated in Victoria and it feels worse. There are 1000s of university and college graduates who graduate and can’t find work worthy of their education and end up fighting for low pay, crappy jobs that are beneath their abilities and experiences. Large parts of the people are unemployed or under employed for years. You can forget about owning cars, houses, condos, or go on any vacations. You would be lucky to afford rent, food, untilites for the long term.”


“The Victoria social culture and offiical policies are non-conductive towards job creation, wealth creation, and building a prosperous life. Everything seems to function to keep people down. Lots of people keep cycling in and out of various school programs and still can’t find well paying, stable, long term employemnet. No matter your education, skills, experience, “oh no never you”. You will get much time and effort wasting run around. In the end, you will all end up moving awat from Victoria to Edmonton and Calagary to work for the oil sands industries to make real money. There is a big difference between finding a good job in Alberta in 3 days and 3+ years to find a bad job in British Columbia.


“Victoria, BC Canada is poor, frustrating, limited, and ever monotonous. It is like being stuck on the same ride ever repeating and can’t get off. I imagined Purgatory would be like Victoria in the afterlife. It give mediocre a bad name.


“There are not enough jobs good or bad to go around in Victoria. Employers have a tendency to low ball workers on pay and benefits because they think they can. This often results in higher than usual staff turnovers and declining quality. Alberta uses more pay to attract good workers, British Columbia offers more abuse and cheap pay to attract workers. Victoria is not competitive as a labour market as places like Calgary, Toronto, etc. Life in Victoria in general is being stuck in an endless loop going nowhere. I have Victoria friends who got fed up with the slow and clueless Victorian ways and went to Fort MacMurray AB to make real oil sands money. The endless wasted time and money spent on job courses in schools resulted in no Victoria jobs.


“Victoria is frustrating because you can die of old age while you are waiting for any kind of results you may want. The culture and bureaucracies grind so slowly. There are not many opportunities to shine as it is, but it gets ridiculously slow and drawn out when the other factors are included. Living in Victoria is fun like watching paint dry or grass grow. You can go away for 5-10 years at a time and them return sporadically and nothing much changes. You don’t notice this if you are visiting. You will notice if you live in Victoria for months or years.


“Greater Victoria does occasionally show some progress, but they are far and few followed by long times of nothing much. The whole place is socially, economically, and culturally disfunctional. The locals and other people wouldn’t be going to Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge, Fort MacMurray Alberta to make some real money if it was so good in Victoria and BC. Most people don’t have a 1000 year life span to wait for Victoria to get more work, better work, better pay and benefits. One life time in Victoria and BC isn’t enough to see any serious changes and improvements.


“University degrees, college diplomas or whatever matters little in Victoria. All your impressive work experience and qualifications don’t matter one bit. The way the Victoria system works behind the scenes is a real mystery. Any other major centre would at least have some sort of decision making rules and procedures whereas Victoria runs on whims, tarot cards, ouija boards, dart boards, or reading signs from animal sacrifice entrails, or whatever crazy decision mechanism. You can even be the perfect fit for a job or date and it doesn’t matter. Winning the lottery jackpot would probably be easier? You can repeadly apply for anything until the cows come home or old age death catches up to you, in Victoria BC.


“The Victoria economy and social culture is like living in box prison. Any happy, sane, content person from any other place will almost always turn into a bitter, frustrated, depressed, whack job if they are forced to live in Victoria too long, for months, years, decades. The area just takes your enthusiasm, drive, ambitions, hopes, and talents and flushes them all down the garberator disposal to chop it all up. It is bad when times are good and more bad when times are bad.


“Frustrating is a good starting word to describe life in Victoria. More will follow as you move and get a full treatment from the city. Like everyone else here, you will find out more as you get more familiar. All the negative comments can save you a lot of time, money, and bother before you get sucked in. If I were you new people from other places, move to some other place other than Victoria that has a chance of making you move worth it. Personally, I would like a potential return on my investment. I dislike it when I pay the price and not get my goods, Victoria.


“I am so grateful that some of my friends and I have parents with some means and resources. IF this wasn’t true, we would have disappeared by now. This city is one of the most mental, restricted, barren major cities I have ever experienced anywhere. It is like living in a city populated by as the others said. “zombies”. Trying to improve one’s living standards is next to almost impossible as everything in Victoria seems to be set up in a way that is designed to oppress you and make you fail. The temporary government jobs with the good pay are contract, temporary at best. Most of the private sector jobs don’t even exist or they pay the cheapest degrading pay possible. The private employers will try to get the top workers for the bottom most wage scale. Good and cheap can’t co-exist together.


“Even if just one person or family is saved from making the mistake of moving their entire life to Greater Victoria, it would have been worth it. Whoever started this blog topic must have had that goal in mind, to prevent others from making his mistake? Victoria has beautiful environment, that is true. Unfortunately, the less than desirable cultural traits of most people and organizations is what brings down the region and negatively overwhelms the good points. The sad sack culture leads to slow progress for all things, limitations, restrictions, dysfunction, repression, and a general feeling of hardly any progress while running really fast to stay in the exact same spot.


“Victoria is a good place to live if you like poverty, lack of opportunities, and like getting ripped off. These qualities makes the people slow, mentally lost, cranky, and depressing. Many of them are probably depressed themselves? People want and need food, shelter, money, social and fun to be happy and content. Victoria culture and economics has and lack in all.


“Victoria lacking in all things is quite an under statement. It is like offering someone who accidentally cut off their own head, while shaving, a bandage to help minimally to stop the bleeding. While other major Canadian metro regions like Calgary, Vancouver, Toronto, Edmonton, Ottawa, Montreal, want to spend billions on mega projects like rail transit, a bridge, airport, docks, they get their crap together and find the funding to get the good built as fast and efficiently as possible. They like results.

Victoria, can’t even get the 13 bickering government municipalities and all the various ass clown groups to agree on what to have for lunch at the planning meetings, never mind the big regional projects. They will procrastinate and pander to every small minded citizen and equally small minded community group who wants their 5 minutes of fame. The compromises, endless studies, petitions and counter referendums will drag on for months, years while everything gets studied to death and nothing gets done. After they waste a lot of time and money, they will discover that the best decision was the original choice. Victoria as BC capital is a fine example of how “democracy” has gone wrong. The only way to get the Victoria mess functional is “efficient dictatorship”. Some tough guy or girl basically has to slap all the dead wood around, tie them up like a rodeo calf, put their foot down really hard, twist some arms and ram things through. To do otherwise is to die of old age while slowly going nowhere, really slow.


 “Perhaps you noticed the people in Victoria and Vancouver Island to be friendly only if you and they are in the some social clique? If you try to be friendly to other people outside your establish clique, you are going to get the Victorian treatment. The treatment is less fun than going through border customs and being subjected to a body cavity search for contraband. Victorians are superficially friendly to your face at work, official functions, to keep up appearances. They would not want to get to know you personally after the business is done. Afterwards, they don’t know you from a hole in the ground.


“Victoria people hang out with their own that they have known for years or decades. You, the newcomer with your bright eyed enthusiasm, fresh new ideas, lively passion, could be seen as a threat to their stale status quo. You could be deconstructed by them and remade in their mode, to become just like them. If you refuse to ASSimilate, you are going to be put into internal social exile. You will have your own invisible box prison around you wherever you go in Victoria. It is like this for work, social, residential needs. Is that cliquey enough for you?


“Sure victoria is a nice place to live, if you are already rich. Making enough money to have a better life is not too easy anywhere, but appears less likely in victoria for previosly mentioned reasons. You are in for an unpleasant surprise if you think you are goin to give up your old life in another bigger Canadian city go to Victoria to make it big with lots of money, good job, cool friends, house, condo, etc.


“Christmas, Canada Day, Civic Day, Labour Day, News Years Day, any other holiday in any other city Canadian or otherwise would be filled with lots of happy, cheerful, outgoing, friendly party people doing their things. Every calendar day in Victoria is no different if they were statutory holidays or regular work days. It is all very dull, boring, comatose, completely lacking in anything resembling passion. It is always like being at a funeral or having a full car tear down inspection by border officers. There are always cold, distant expressions, a carrot up the ass types of looks. Laxatives won’t help the Victoria culture.


“There seems to be prevalence of general life in Victoria to be boring and dull. I feel the people and culture of Victoria are very uptight, dull, and boring. Most of the time they act really odd. Nobody can accuse most Victoria people of being adventurous.


“We moved here in 1980 and always found it a really difficult place to make a living. We stayed because we got trapped here for financial reasons but have been dreaming of escaping for a long time. There are way too many people chasing too few good jobs. It is also very insular and unfriendly to newcommers. I still remember being asked when I wanted to register my car in BC by the clerk with a sneer “what do you people want here” as if Albertans were from outer space and not Canadians.

It is too bad the rest of Canada has such cold winters but I wouldn’t recommend anyone moving here unless you are retired and have lots of money. If you are able to make money elsewhere and live here part time is also a good plan. It is expensive and boring. Most of the locals donot want to meet new people and are snobs. The ferries keep you trapped here as it is inconvenient and expensive to leave.


 “People with brains, abilities, education can get worhty employment and pay in places like Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto because of their assumption of skill and merit. Nepotism corrupt Victoria would label you under or over qualified at the same time and place. They will want to pay cheap for the good people anyway. They drive all the best job applicants to other cities and even outside of BC. The left over results will be sub standard and messed up. The remaining highest ranking best of the worse stupid ones will be promoted to leadership positions and pay. Then you have situations of the most incompetent getting the best jobs and benefits.


“I agree that Victorians are cheap, restricted, and crusty. The only friendly, sociable, with a clue, intelligent, cool Victorians are the ones fresh off the plane or boat. They haven’t been in Victoria long enough to absorb all the mental culture yet.


“Calgary, Edomonton Alberta generate revenue by selling oil and gas and other goods to the world. They have a wealthy lifestyle, mindset, higher wages, and the pricey toys and services to prove their good life. The costs and taxes are much lower and the average workers can aspire to build something with their lives. Then you have Victoria, Vancouver British Columbia that generates revenue by putting up all kinds of sales, income, environmental taxes, surcharges, fees to scrape away the already pathetic low wages of BC citizens. All the costs of living are already too high as it is. On top of this, BCers refuse to pump oil, gas off the Pacific coast, transport Alberta oil and gas to sell to the rising rich countries in Asia and South America. The transport of oil and gas could potentially screw the environment. BC say bye bye to lots of high pay jobs, supporting jobs, and lots of wealth while the various taxes further impoverish the BC people.


“Most people seem to be poor and bored in Victoria. It is no wonder they are cranky, uptight, stingy. The bad low wages and taxes on everything will drain you like a vampire. The BC people are anti wealth and pro tax. The government will be more than happy to suck you dry in various ways, unlike Alberta in all things.


“Victorians are no common sense, spaced out, jerk around idiots, most of them are anyways. If you love uptight, crazy, procrastinating, closed minded, poor ass, eco freaks, unreliable, indecisive, mental cases, Victoria is the city to spend the years of your life. It takes a special kind of self torturing, masochistic, poverty loving, success hating, nut bar to actually want to volunteer to move to Victoria. The more with it Victorians themselves want to leave. Victoria would actually be up to stuff if the living standards and conditions could match the high environment quality. Instead you will live the poor life of a frustrated crazy person in a beautiful environment. Why do you think BC province is so economically, culturally, socially screwed up when compared to other Canadian provinces? Victoria is the capital city.


“The Victorian area economy and job market is getting worse and worse. Don’t let any government or agency propaganda fool you into thinking everything is just great. The real proof is on the ground, the front lines. There are long lines of people on various ad web sites pleading for almost non-existent jobs. The jobs lists on all the employment sites are sparse for Victoria. If you do get a job, there are most likely the cheap slave driving kind. The spaced out employers want to hire staff, but not want to hire at the same time. Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Ottawa, etc were not this messed up and on top of things. I can’t believe some of you actually want to move to Victoria to become part of that culture?


“The situation for all or most of Canada and BC or Victoria is the same when attracting immigrants and locals to move for work. However, it is even more so on Vancouver Island and Victoria. We really like your mad skills and experience in whatever high job you are doind, move or emmigrate to work for us. When you finally arrive, the story changes to something like, “Oh, we don’t recognize any of the skills and education from you home region or country. You can waste years and lots of money to go back to school again so we can have jobs at your expense. If that isn’t good for you, we do have jobs as cleaners, retailers, fast food workers, taxi drivers, hospitality workers, delivery drivers for all your mad skills.” Do you feel dumb for falling into the sales scam by Canada, BC, Victoria, etc? You left your home region and country to go from doctor, lawyer, engineer, teacher, government official to beocme a pizza delivery driver/cook in Canada. The governments, employers/trades associations, schools are all in on the “bait and switch” con job conspiracy. Many get tricked because they don’t know any better and lapse in judgement.


“Unlike many of the other major Canadian metro regions where merit has value, Victoria is all about nepotism, corruption connections. The answer to everything work, social, cultural is always, “you are great, exactly what we wanted and hoped for, but oh no not you! We’ll keep you in mind and find someone else like you and give it to them. You ok with that?”


“The wages are pathetically cheap and the expenses are high. You make less and get squeezed to pay more for all goods and services. The various sales, environmental, carbon taxes and various fees and levies will kill your finances later. Federal income taxes and payments will take another chunk of money from you. That is probably one of the reasons why Victoria people seemed silent, grouchy, unfriendly, uptight, reserved, paranoid? They don’t have much to be joyous about, taxed to death, under paid and abused to death, frustrated, gloomy, and bored. They can’t earn and save enough to have a good enjoyable life. They have a hard time just surviving, no time or resources to have a fun social life too.


“Victoria would be a lot more fulfilling, fun, happy, and content if many of the people are not economically, socially, psychologically, financially frustrated and blocked. People can’t be happy, outgoing, sociable, and content if they are not achieving their goals and dreams. Life is good when one has what they want and need and life really sucks when people don’t. Victoria is a prison to many people when they are not allowed to live up to their potential. People leave Victoria and BC to other places when home is not good.


“No kidding! It seems like Victoria, Vancouver Island and all of BC is a crooked price fixing racket? The governments and private businesses look for every small excuse to pay workers slave wages while at the same time charge you extortion high prices for all goods and services. The people are not people or staff, just money milking cows. Getting squeezed at both ends means your prospects are fairly limited or limiting. A main reason why BC is bleeding out brains, talent, and workers is because the BC culture in all things, don’t know how to treat people well.


“Yes everything is a racket in BC and especially Victoria the capital city. I am actually surprised they still have any brains left as they seem to bleed all the good people out to other places. They don’t know how to treat capable people and their competitors in other places do. This is probably a repeat, but good and cheap abusive can’t co-exist in the same place and time. It must be a natural law of the universe?


“Victoria is not a nice place to live. The natural environment is nice, but most of the people are not nice. They are culturally uptight, repressive, closed minded, socially restricted to their cliques, and mentally dumb. Common sense is definitely not common in the Victoria region. General life in Victoria is an oxymoron (conflicting illogic) or any other type of moron. The social mental attitude is one of the main reasons why the area economy and social life is messed up. The environment can only be fully enjoyed if one is independently wealthy and powerful, separated from the need to work or bow to others for a living. The low wages, cheap work environment, daily life pressures will grind you, wear you down, and remove most joys in life from you life in Victoria. You will be sorry if you did not do your research homework before moving your life.


“I personally know many people who are chronically unemployed or under employed just because the live in Greater Victoria. The region is not prosperous because it has almost no heavy industries with the higher pay as a foundation. This leads to everything else that follows been even more cheap and limited. In most other places, these people would probably have accidentally hit a good paying job, or any other job by now. You almost never get a job even if you are qualified. You keep getting sent back to school for endless retraining and always no work.


“The internet is a good research tool. Before the internet, people would move to a place and find out it is not all that it is made out to be. It is too late to find out the truth. Most people hate wasting time, money, talent, enthusiasm, and other resources on any lost causes. Skills, education, experience, merit doesn’t matter like it does in other normal Canadian regions. Life in Victoria needs to be independently rich, work free, connected or you will be left high and dry with nothing. Many organizations large to small do “fake job hiring” to test how many job applicants they get per job posting, or to scare their unionized work force into accepting lower labour contracts by showing how many people are available to replace them. The resumes and applications sit somewhere collecting dust and unread for months, years, maybe a decade?


“Victoria is a great place to live if certain conditions and situations are met. You would love it in Victoria if you are too rich to have to work for a living and money just flows over you like by magic. You can use the excess cash as toilet paper to wipe your rear. The bleak reality for most of the Victoria people is a lot less lavish and frivolous. Victoria would be great for you if the scenery and environment can pay all your expenses and give you free money to live the lifestyle you want. You are most likely to get your job applications ignored repeatedly by all sorts of employers of varying size, as their existing lazy and incompetent staff procrastinate. The hiring and start date deadlines will pass as nobody seems to care about inefficiency and lost time and money. The stacks of resumes will grow moldy somewhere as the organizations will continually job advertise for jobs they seem to have no intentions of filling. They treat it like it was a joke game to take up extra free time.


“Oh definitely Victoria is not a good place to live. You can visit it as many times as you like and then go back home. However, never ever make it your permanent home if you have a choice. Trading in your goals and objective dreams for a few moments of beautiful environment isn’t worth it. The entire regional system is totally lacking in every way. Read all the people’s comments. They are not BSing you. It is the real experience.


“Life in Victoria just continuously dumps on locals and visitors who stay too long. The glitter is gone and replaced by frustration and dreary drab. It must be the bad vibes of the whole region that makes even a bright sunny day feel oppressive and grey? It is a good thing there is occasional sunshine or living and dealing with Victoria would multiple times more depressing. The entire region is like this.


“Victoria is not happening enough as a city, a major Canadian city. I met many people who come to Victoria expecting good and big things with their lives and find excessive limitations instead. There is not enough of all the good things that everyone wants to going around. They are in short supply. I agree with all the comments about Victoria before mine. If I could relaunch my life from the beginning, I would not go to Victoria and choose other Canadian cities with more opportunities to go up not down. I was sold an expectation that can’t be met by the local Victoria material available. They under performed expectations.


(Source: http://www.topix.com/forum/ca/victoria-bc/TCDL3J6RA3GF50S20/p5)


I’ll stop here, although I could keep posting because the complaints go on for another eighty pages! I wouldn’t have guessed it but Victoria may actually be the most hated city in Canada … more complaints/rants than Ottawa, Edmonton or even Winnipeg!

I thought about moving to Victoria for a time, but once I researched the cost of living I didn’t bother going. Even in shit towns on the island you’re looking at around $700,000+ for a condo! 

The problem is that the rest of Canada is a cold shit hole, so naturally everyone gravitates to British Columbia. But even B.C.’s north is a redneck, frozen crap pile, so almost everyone goes to the lower mainland and Vancouver Island. Being that the average Vancouver house now costs one-million dollars, and the city grows bigger, dingier and less affordable by the day, people think they can flee to Vancouver Island for warmth, safety and decent living. How wrong they are!

Victoria is small; the nearby towns even smaller. In such a small community there isn’t going to be enough work to go around, locals will always be favored and resent outsiders; with lack of space comes lack of affordable housing; and without decent employment and housing the quality of life is dramatically depressed. The situation carries on because there’s always a stream of fresh bodies looking for one decent place in Canada to live … 

I have to shake my head at some of the comments too, poor saps! Ottawa is a shit hole, so is Edmonton! Saskatchewan is another shit pile, and good luck moving to the “friendly” east coast! Sure there may be work in Calgary or Toronto, but neither of those cities are exactly great to live in either. The poor suckers don’t realize the rest are big steaming turds too!

This fucking country … nowhere to go but you’ll notice the same complaints from east to west: awful people, hideous winters and cold, no employment, unaffordable housing, barely surviving with the cost of living. The only warm or halfway decent areas are full of the mega rich and you can basically expect to serve them and lick their asses until you croak.

There is no escape in this giant hole known as Canada.

Kelowna: Rants

Not long ago I heard Kelowna described as a “right wing shithole”. Yep, that about sums it up. A racist, nasty, disgusting cesspool of self-absorbed older wealthy white men, seniors, and their scum-of-the-earth spawn. I’ve been meaning to make a post on it for awhile, but I haven’t worked up the stomach yet. You have no idea how much I truly loathe that place – I would rather live in Ottawa!

Are you a crazy conservative nutjob Christian? You’ll love Kelowna.
Are you a white supremacist? You’ll love Kelowna.
Are you wealthy, retired and unimaginative? You’ll love Kelowna.
Do you aspire to live in a Jersey Shore reality series? You’ll love Kelowna.
Do you ingest or sell copious amounts of cocaine? You’ll love Kelowna.
Have you just been patched in as an H-A member? You’ll love Kelowna.
Are you a crack addict who enjoys sleeping on beaches? You’ll love Kelowna.

These comments are right on.

So without further ado, here are some rants:

“If you live in a big city, but fancy blistering isolation amongst a flock of narrow-minded and suspicious bushwackers, look no further. Pretty, yes. Pretty rough.


“If there is hell on Earth, Kelowna is it. Tempting to love there in the beginning after you’ve vacationed there and fell in love the with scenery. Once you move there, you will remove the rose coloured glasses as start to see what Kelowna really is, Hell.

1. Very few jobs and they all pay minimum wage even if you have a degree. A high paying jobs would be working at Costco, seriously! 

2. Steroid Monkeys, Hell’s Angels, other gangs, durg addicts, stuck up women[even the fat ugly ones], and a whole lot of retards. 

3. White rich snobs who you will be wiping the ass of to get their crumbs. You will hear the dried up corpses talk about their most recent trip to Mexico, the fine wine they drank, and other useless crap.  

4. You will be broke and working/welfare all the time. 

5. Bring Single and Poor in the Okanagan is the equivalent of having full blown AIDS and advertising it on a shirt anywhere else. Yes, you will have to date some really fat and gross creature just to get laid. Very True!!! 

6. The 100 year old members of City Council and their dislike of anything considered a new fangled contraption or idea. 

7. Racism and lots of it. 

8. Lost of Chachi’s and female Britney Spears clones. 

9. The new Bermuda Triangle for STDS in Kelowna. 

10. Just don’t move to Kelowna or area unless you like being an flat assed broke outcast who is treated like a leaper.  

11. More clicky thank highschool. 

12. I could go on and on but I would be typing all night. Expensive!!!! 

So if you are thinking of moving to Kelowna, remember that German couple a few years back to moved to Kelowna from Germany, because they fell in love with Kelowna during a vacation. Well in the end their employer fucked them over, no one on Kelowna would help them and the couple borrowed a huge amount of money to move back to Germany(maybe someone here can pull up the link to this story). 

I personally would rather live in Kabul, Afghanistan or Iran rather than live in Kelowna again.


“I agree with all the negative opinions on Kelowna!! I wish I would have read up more before moving here, and regret ever moving here – biggest mistake of my life!!


“After reading the posts here, why are you tradespeople and movers still thinking or actually moving to Kelowna. There is no work in Kelowna that will pay you what you need to get ahead. A 1st year machinist will be working at McDonalds for $8.50/hr. There is no work in Kelowna unless you are a drug dealer or you like making minimum wage in the service and food industry.

To alj and Mike: See you on the hard streets or working at Wendys.
To Paul shykora: Yodillolaliehoo. I’d love Kelowna if I was a Millionaire and already had a hot wife from South America. Other that that, you will be making minimum wage, kissing rich people’s asses for scraps,and living with 3 other roommates just to pay the bills. Like another poster, I would rather live in Iran or Afghanistan before moving back to Kelowna. Kelowna is hell if you have no money.

So, people who plan or even want to move to Kelowna, please please please take my advice and stay away from Kelowna. It is indeed HELL.


“Now this is a jackass!!! “Oh boy, I’m a juice monkey who bought my house with money from my rich parents or money from drug dealing. Yes, my parents are proud because I hang around with organized crime figures. My celebrity friends must really appreciate this post which in essence links them with Hells Angels!

Again another real reason not to move to the Okanagan aka the Brokeanagan. Is your daddy a Hells Angel or a transvestite working downtown? 

Boy you are tough. You can threaten people to knowck them out on the internet because you are a red nick hillbilly moron. Do you watch UFC too little retard!? Is your girlfriend a bleach blonde bimbo with an IQ of 30. Don’t worry we will lave the shithole Kelowna to the shithead aka YOU! 


“The only way you could afford a new house is if your mommy and daddy bought it for you!!
This is what I mean about the dickheads who live in Kelowna. It is a shithole so yes stay away!!!
Kelowna will be like Mad Max in about 30 years when all the water dries up and all you are left with is scumbags.


“I have to agree with most peoples comments on Kelowna, BC I have lived here my whole life and as a young adult there is no oppurtunity to get ahead in this town if your doing Legit work. No one can live off 12 bucks an hour! People come here with big dreams to suceed but they get caught up in the partying scene and using coke, they have to leave with no money all debts to go work elsewhere. In my opinion the only way to make money and survive in kelowna is to grow weed or be a coke dealer (not that I advise anyone to do so) but all the young adults here are driving around with esclades, bmws,hummers etc are drug dealers. Kelowna is run by the Hells Angels and everyone knows it! So for all you legit people -good luck surviving in this shithole full of chachy people, steriod monkeys and coke heads and HA’s


“loved your quote its amazing how many people hate kelowna people


This is a perfect example why not to move to Kelowna, jersey shore bitches who think they know what their talking about. HA’s Omg your so tough and so ‘kelowna’ it’s pethadic

Go back to jersey shore…totally gross..totally kelowna


“I moved to Kelowna from Calgary as I wanted nicer weather and to be close to water. The summers were awesome, winters were nice too. But….the cost of living was very high and good paying jobs are very few and far between. I worked harder and for less money in Kelowna as a draftsman than I did doing the same job in calgary. They call this the Sunshine Tax!! The stress and pace of work life was no different than in Calgary. I returned to Calgary after 3 years and my salary doubled.

I realize now that to move to Kelowna I want to be retired and have my finances in order because you dont want to have to work for a living in the Okanagan!!


“I have lived in Kelowna for approx. 2o years now and I can tell you it has gone downhill as far as I’m concerned.Yeh the lakes and ski hills are nice.There are alot of average paying jobs here (approx.$12/hour).Min. wage is not $15/hour as someone posted it is around the area of $9/hour although many places pay a little more than that.One of the biggest problems in Kelowna is the huge lack of affordable housing.If you don’t have a very good paying job here its hard to get by. People here are having trouble finding places to rent (very expensive) and the cost to buy a home has sky rocketed in the last few years and will probably continue to rise. Kelowna has become a place for the well to do.The homeless and the drug addicted street creatures continues to grow and have become quite a problem in the last few years( ie.com mitting crimes and break ins) and all the while our incompetant mayor,in all her wisdom,wants to build more highrises for the rich people to live in.So before moving here you really might want to look into thses things further as the lakes and beaches may not look so good if thats where your sleeping because you can’t afford housing.


“Kelowna is the WORST city in Canada in terms of making a living. The cost of living here is HORRENDOUS!!!!!!!!


“I’ve lived in kelowna for the last 10 years and belive me kelowna is not that great there is tons of work but most of them pay minimum wage and if you don’t bring a lot of money good luck buying a house, have a look at the mls website. kelowna is a small city, very small around 100,000 people live here. and for those saying 15$ an hour is minimum wage let me tell you something there is a metal shop down the road from my house and they have a big sign “now hiring” it lists all the trades they need like certified welders and they will pay an ammazing 9$ an hour. if you are retired kelowna is a great place, it has nice mild winters and lots of sun in the summer, but if you are not retired kelowna is a bad place to live, its a nice place to go on holidays but not to live. haven’t you heard of the sunshine tax? someone saied there is a lot of millionaires here …. its their summer homes i can guaranty you they didn’t make their money here. you really want to know how great kelowna is just google Aaron Derbyshire.


“tons of gangsters, drug dealers and grow ops…thats bout it.


“drug dealing is a trade in kelowna. thats almost the only way your going to bring in all the money!! i have been in kelowna for 24 yrs and thats al kelowna has to offer..is the BEST drugs you can get! so if you plan on movin, have fun and im sure ill see some of you on the streets at one point. 


“i have lived in very many places. I grew up in chilliwack, BC. Ten years ago I moved to different areas of alberta and also northern saskatchewan.( i was born in Sask.) I was living in fort mcMurray before i moved to Vernon, BC which is 35 minutes from Kelowna. I have been here 4 years and I am going back to the prairies.I cant afford the car insurance . Example, I have 1987 toyota .In alberta I paid approx. 500 to 600 a year basic PLPD insurance. Sask. was even cheaper 400 dollars per year. I come to BC and with my 40% driving discount I am paying for basic insurance ( no collision either)(R U ready for this?) 840.00 per year. This is just one of the reasons. Rents for a 1 bdrm apt. in Vernon start at 800.00 per month. Carpenter labourers make 8.00 bucks an hour and not too many people make 15.00 dollars an hour. I used to love BC but not anymore . It has been built on rich retirees and rich immigrants. If u move to kelowna or the lower mainland make sure U bring lots of money because it is geared and set up for the wealthy and retired. Many families are moving because there is as they say no bread and butter in the okanagan. Companies wanted to move in but they can’t afford to set up shop because land is too valuable to be wasted on providing jobs for the average working class. The city councils make more money selling any land available to rich developers who will grease their palms too. Well i am just seeing it like it is . I cant afford to live here anymore and I work for a school district and make over 20.00 per hour. Its the cost of living in canada’s lotus land i guess


“I’ve lived there for the last 18 years. If it wasn’t for my kids, I would be gone from this place in a heartbeat.


“Kelowna has been on a steady decline over the last number of years. The infrastructure is falling apart, crackheads are everywhere. Traffic is awful…Most of the big events like wakefest and the regatta are gone. The city council is a group of old f*&ks that think golfing and their 44.1 million dollar indoor swimming pool are the only things you should be allowed to do here. 

The RCMP spend more time checking the exhaust systems on boats and motorcycles during the summer than dealing with the real problems this city has.

A vacation spot? Sure there are some decent mountain bike trails, skiing, the lake is lame compared to the Shushwap, there isn’t really any “culture” here, there’s alot of wiggers and Paris Hilton wannabes. 

I find North Shore, West Van, Penticton all better places to be.

If you’re an old fart, Kelowna is a good place to curl up and die. The city itself is in it’s last throws…..Unless an intelligent and competent city council can be elected to turn this city back into the fun place it once was.


 “well here we go,i have been in kelowna for about 9 years,i personelly think we have a greater problem here than people think,it’s not just about the junkies,the alcoholic’s,the homeless,We here all about these thing’s everyday,but nothing gets done,the reason is we the police,the politicians,can’t and will not tell you the truth,kelowna is the home to biker’s,to organized crime they are in control of our comunity,they bring million’s of dollars here why would anyone want to stop this,we here about the police arresting this guy and that guy and moviong homeless people away claiming how much money was confiscated and how many (little guy’s)were arrested,if they were serious they would have cleaned this place up a long time ago,wake up people it’s time we got the truth,you cannot cut the tail off the snake it grow’s back,you have to cut the head right off,because soon all of or a good percentage of people are and will be on drug’s,who is going to run our work places,guess who and what will happen to beautifull keowna,or should we call it crackona……….cain


“Lived here since 1980 and when I think back to the good old days here I want to fucking cry.Expensive, lower wages on average,too busy for it’s size, too much growth too quickly…and so on goes the domino effect. Better have lots of cash or make lots, because you will require it. As a tradesman who makes approximately 70k a year I live in a 40 year old semi shithole that I bought and drive a 14 year old truck and wear old clothes just to afford things that I want to do, LEAVE KELOWNA every weekend to go into the mountains!!!


“The Court House in Kelowna is Very Very Corrupt. The Judges have a way to create desperate family situations that foster teen runaways to feed their hooker Habit. The worst Whoremonger amongst them is Judge M. Bishop and T.R. Brooke

Watch out, avoid this town


“kelowna is for the ultrarich. nothing is relative in this community. living cost far exceeds income.more than comfortable incomes seem to ‘get by’. drugs and crime sprouting up all over. community has a ‘nimby’ attitude.ccommunity spawns self-absorbed, self-righteous individuals.far too right wing politics for the amount of pot heads in community.way too many bible thumpers. way too many pesticides. way to many uptight,latte drinking soccer moms.way to many hummers,way to many malibu wakeboard boats. way to many wanna be’s…

just my 2 cents and i am entitled


“Been in Kelowna 14 years, now, and ready to puke…City is beatiful, but has little or no work and few well-paying jobs, even though I’m university educated ! I make far less than if I lived in Calgary or Vancouver ?

Cost of living is VERY high, most landlords are bast*rds, too, in this town, that’s IF you can even find a reasonable place to stay. After your rent is paid, and car insurance, you’ll always stressed out and broke… 

There’s lot of rich, wealthy old people who come here but little of it is invested into local industry or business, it all goes into the bank… 

As a result, several hundred people apply for just ONE job, employers knows this and are cunning, demanding and/or exploitative, especially if you are over 30…? 

Banks flourish here, real estate agents are greedy, exploitative *ssholes, in general, employers are both cheap and demanding, expect you to be on-call and available, 24-7.

The drug scene is annoying and they (dealers) walk around, paranoid, thinking everyone is a “cop” or going to bust them…? 


“We’re not cops, man, but if any of you punks piss on my lawn or play your music too loud, I’ll just come over and give you a good ole fashioned Okanagan lickin !
Ha ha !


“I can’t wait to leave, I’ve never been so broke in my life. I work a shit job, for shit pay and all the while serve rich retirees who talk about boating and vacations.

I have a university education and constantly look at other cities for employment. I came here from the East coast and miss my friends.family. People seem into themselves and protected from the world. If there was any place that presented the divide between rich and poor. It is Kelowna, probably because its so small. People are nice here but far too clicky. It needs a does of reality because it doesn’t live in it.
Its not all that.


 “if you like drugs, gangs and bear mace, then kelowna is perfect for you…even more so west kelowna


“Ohhhhhh Kelowna. I lived there for 4 years and moved to Edmonton 3 years ago. Here’s the skinny. Kelowna is beautiful! The winters arent too cold. Summers are hot and you have a lake to jump into whenever you want. HOWEVER…and this is a big however. It is VERY expensive to live in. Gas is WAY more than Edmonton and if there’s a long weekend coming you better gas up before Wednesday or you’ll be shelling out another 10 cents a litre come Thursday. There are plenty of jobs, and they all pay mimimum wage. Lots of places to rent that you won’t be able to afford. The crack heads congregate downtown and especially at city park, right on the water. Wouldn’t you if you were homeless? That park bleeds into an area of million dollar homes that have huge problems with crack heads in their yards. Pine beetles are a HUGE problem that no one seems to care about. If you have’t heard of them, they are a nasty little pest that are eating up the woods, leaving trees dead, dry and standing. That means you can expect fires frequently. You may be evacuted. What next. Ok let’s talk wages. In Edmonton where the cost of living is less I make 50 percent more than Kelowna working the exact same job. People want to move there for the landscape and climate and employers know this and know you’ll work for nothing. Trust me you won’t be able to afford it. Unless you already have money or own a business or land some super high paying job, you will be screwed. You’ll be depressed looking around at all the fun activities that you can’t afford to do. Boating, skiing. Even camping is like 40 bucks a night. The city got too big too fast. The whole power grid is whacked out so there are constant power outages. And as many have touched on there is no culture. You can party there for sure but if you’re into the arts scene or anything like that, forget it. But…it sure does look nice. Kelowna is a place for rich people to retire, rich kids to go to school, or regular people to visit for a weekend of partying.


“My husband and I are both educated and find it almost impossible to get ahead in this city. We purchased our house five years ago, and if we stay, we are looking at a bad retirement.

Yes, the weather is great compared to the rest of Canada. Summer’s are hot, but because of the dry climate, it is wonderful. 

It is hard to find good paying jobs here, even if you have the education.

The culture SUCKS here. If you enjoy living around a bunch of white people, then Kelowna is for you. It feels like a LA or Las Vegas want-to-be town. Small town trying to be big mentality. 

If the cost of living was better, I would be able to justify living here, but to me, it’s not worth it unless you have a low mortgage rate and you have a good job.


 “I have been living in kelowna for about 2 years now and I gotta say it’s pretty lame ….. I grew up in northern BC and moved here due to the spouse’s job. Most people who like Kelowna are people from the flatlands of Canada who think the only places that exist in BC are kelowna and Vancouver. Kelowna is the most over-rated town in the Okanagan ….. and the crappiest. If you are thinking about moving to the Okanagan I would suggest looking into the Kootenays or northern BC FIRST where the wages are better, poeple are nicer, and the cost of living is half of what it is here ….. I really hope to get out of this shithole one day!!


“This city blows. I just moved here and can’t find a job. I have my doctorate degree and I’m only trying to find something to just get by, even minimum wage, until I’m registered in my profession in four months. Don’t move here unless your business is general contracting… that way you can buy up as many real estate lots for $100,000 and build $600,000 homes. You can then get rich selling them to all these idiot Kelownans, who I simply don’t understand what they do for a living to afford a home here.


“Kelowna is just plain ugly. Our winters here are PATHETIC, with a sickening lack of snow. The people here care too much about wine and golf and are far too snobby. The town seems to be controlled by retirees who think they can control the world because they pay taxes. And lastly the town looks like a slum. Some parts of Kelowna look like Detroit and there are weeds and invasive trees EVERYWHERE you look. Its almost embarrassing to live in Kelowna.


“Kelowna may well be a beautiful place; it’s got amazing scenery, a beautiful lake, and the summers are hard to beat. 

But there’s no work – none. There was some work here before 2008 happened, but that’s all dried up now, and unless you don’t mind working graveyards at a gas station for $8/hr it’s definitely not a place where you’re going to be able to get ahead.  

The people are dicks. Either they’re snobby and stuck up, rich and stuck up, poor and stuck up or just plain assholes – they’re all dicks. The women are retards, and as noted in several posts above the guys are steriod monkeys. Every other person is a coke head, alcoholic or drug dealer. 

The only people that have money here are the retired ones, and they don’t spend it – at least not here (well, they do spend money at the golf course, but that’s it). If you’re in business for yourself as I am, you’ll quickly learn that all they do is nickel and dime you to death, because the culture of this hell hole is “cheap, cheap, cheap” while demanding “best, best, best”.  

Taxes are insane. After you spend two weeks working at a gas station earning a whopping $500, you’ll have $125 taken for income tax and another $60 will go to HST. Apart from government taxes, everything is rediculously expensive, so the little bit of cash you have left won’t go very far – might make up little more than half of your rent payment (that you share with 5 other roommates because you can’t actually afford a house to rent by yourself.) 

I heard a great saying the other day about Kelowna – it went: “To live in Kelowna you either have to be retired or retarded. If you want to leave Kelowna with a million dollars you first have to arrive here with two million”. That about sums it up.

Can’t believe I still live here. Think it’s time to move on 😉


 “Couldn’t agree more. I’m born and raised here, and let me tell you, this place has deteriorated hugely over the past 20 or so years. The people are stupid, arrogant assholes who drive like they’re playing Grand Theft Auto, it’s FULL of criminals and human scum, and is overcrowded and expensive beyond belief. The lake is filthy anywhere near town, so forget about going to the local beaches,unless you want swimmers itch, and forget about going boating, unless you want to get killed by some drunken retard in an over powered speedboat. It WAS very nice here once upon a time, but now it’s just fucked…it’s been ruined. Too many goddamn people here, now. The summers aren’t even as nice as they used to be, either.


“Kelowna is definitely a hard place to live. I lived in Calgary my whole life and moved out to kelowna with my boyfriend about 2 years ago and it was a huge struggle for about the first year until my boyfriend found a job up north… which kind of defeats the purpose of living here for him. If you are not coming out here with a lot of money or coming with a fairly high paying job, it will be a struggle to get by. Housing is expensive and the jobs suck… compared to calgary anyways. I heard on the radio that you need to make at least $70000 a yr to be comfortable here, so that’s definitely something to consider. My best friend moved out here for 6 months and hated it and moved back to calgary, mostly due to not making any money and people who get Seasonal Affect Disorder get it really bad here. The locals can be pretty stuck up too, some are super nice tho, but the whole nightlife scene is pretty shitty with kinda trashy ppl. BUT the outdoor activities are really great…


“This town is a drug spot.. cant imagine a lower quality of life now.. I wonder who’s gonna see this… There’s No jobs here for people without drivers licenses that are not fast food / retail .. Planning on moving to Fort st john or to Alberta .. Need $$


“Kelowna is a shithole which is overcrowded with douchebags like the ones in the pathetic “Kelownafornia” video. Look it up on youtube. On the bright side, if you happen to be a complete douchebag, you’ll love kelowna.


“Left SK 4 years ago because of the cold winters, but the people in Kelowna are colder!!! Winters may be a “bit” warmer, but the cloud blanket is almost unbearable – so dull and dreary, one wants to commit suicide. As well, I didn’t think the winters would be as cold as they are and didn’t think they would have snow that would stay as long as it does. Very disappointed in the winters!!!

Now the summers suck – it is 25 – 30 in SK, and here this month it has only been 15 – 25 – what a total disappointment in the weather!!

BC does stand for Bring Cash!! Unbelievably high and not many good paying jobs – employers here really take advantage of the workers – underpaid and no benefits, purely sticking to 2 weeks vacation (in SK it is 3 weeks)

And the people!!!!! Well, where do I begin – snobs, inconsiderate, impolite – I guess if you are rich, you fit in!!!

Yes, I know what your response is – well, then go back to SK – I would but have a husband who actually likes it here (think he is has too much pride to return to SK and doesn’t want to admit the place sucks!!)


 “Well, I was born here in Kelowna in 1969 and grew up here for the most part, and all I can say is that it sure was nicer back in the day than it is now – nicer people and less of them, better summers (it’s June 30, the Canada Day long weekend, and its overcast, raining, and about 17 degrees C. Last year was the same), none of the traffic nightmares we have now, very little crime and drug problems, and very affordable (a new 3 bedroom house in 1980 was about $45,000, depending on where you bought). Now it is an overcrowded and very expensive place with very few good jobs, major crime, drug, and homeless issues, and a population of arrogant, stuck up morons. People that move here act like they’re members of some sort of exclusive club, or something, and it’s all about how you look; very superficial. Everyone looks the same – white shades and tattoos – and drives the same kind of vehicle – a jacked up truck if you’re a guy, or a sports convertible type if you’re a girl. For those of limited means, a Pontiac Sunbird. Not a lot of original thinkers here. So, if you do decide to move here, bring lots of cash, make sure you have a job lined up before moving, and don’t expect to make any real friends any time soon.


“Groceries have been trucked in from Calgary to help the Kelowna food bank weather an unexpected surge in demand.

Nearly 11,400 kilograms of non-perishables were delivered this week to the Ellis Street depot, where applications for assistance are up 12 per cent from this time last year.

Calgary food bank spokeswoman Kathryn Sim says that city’s food bank had a surplus of stock and its corporate partners want extra food to go where it’s needed most.

The Kelowna food bank is still counting on a successful Christmas in July campaign as it hopes to raise $50,000 and 100 tons of food. 

It hasn’t met its targets in the past two summers.

Kelowna food bank manager Vonnie Lavers says donations are down because businesses and households have been struggling to make ends meet.(Kelowna Daily Courier)

Move to kelowna and you’ll be eating out of the food bank and the bank will repo your house. Google kelowna foreclosures…..you’ll see what I mean.


 “It’s not that Kelowna isn’t a beautiful place. It is. For maybe 5 months of the year. It is a bit overrated for what you really get, which is about 4 months of hot, sunny weather, horrible traffic and drivers, exorbitant cost of living, major crime and drug problems, and some of the stupidest, most annoying people on Earth. Lots and lots of them.


“Kelowna is such a dump and I hate living here. Everyone who says that this area is beautiful has obviously never seen neighborhoods inland. The city only cares about the lake shore and doesn’t give a crap about much inland. All you have to do is drive around and see the neglect of properties and that there are weeds growing shoulder high everywhere. It seems that I’m the only one that cares about the look of this town. I’m also tired of the people that think Kelowna is the “California of Canada”. I’ve got news for you. Kelowna has never been, isn’t and will never be part of California. If you want to live in California, I would highly suggest that you move there and don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Take the “world class” wineries and golf courses with you. I think that Kelowna should return to being family town and this whole Jersey Shore attitude toward the Okanagan should die a painful death. I think that Kelowna has the potential to be a wonderful place to live, its just that we need a mayor and city council that doesn’t sniff glue all day long. Anybody who thinks the Okanagan is the most beautiful place on earth has obviously never traveled around the world, or even around BC for that matter. There’s a region to the north of the Okanagan called the Shuswap that is MUCH more beautiful than the Okanagan and there’s the Kootenay region too. The things I dislike about Kelowna and the Okanagan just simply fail to exist in those places.


“kelowna is a beautiful place. But living in a 3 dimensional strip mall sucks balls. there’s no soul in this town. a big long mall along a dirty highway.


“a company sniped me offering 11$ an hour more than I was making back home. I have bee here 4 months and absolutely hate it. never seen so many hillbillies driving pickups. no one walks, biking is deadly, downtown has no nightlife, when I read comments that say “fun” I assume they moved from one suburb to another. all my coworkers friends ive met act liberal but are young republican scum. they all have frustrated wives that are locked away in mountain fortresses with nothing to do all day. They have shitty house parties recounting the same tales over and over again “big white, earls, flashbacks, mountainbiking”. fucking lame. this place is stuck in the eighties. Its so honk here it hurts. rich douchebags driving around too scared to walk because there scared of one crystalmethhead, its not east hastings lol. the women are blond and coarse, its like the descendants of hitlers youth migrated to canada. sheesh the rascism! ” moved here from the hongcouver” I feel sorry for kelownens. NO variety, NO fun, NO clue, NO choice…

maybe these mountains obstruct time, feels like ive been here a year already

no amount of money is worth living in this shithole that time forgot.


 “I did a stint here before 2001 to 2003 and all youd see downtown is HA wearing their colors, back home they cracked down on them and even built a new prison for them. now into my fourth month this time and cheetahs has degenerated into some sort frathouse full of local douchebags. flashbacks has no more cougars 😦 earls food sucks for the price. gashouse is too far. im from a big city and am used to public transit or walking, when you walk here the hillbillies look at you as if your poor. when you look down on the highway from mount boucherie you can see a snake of back smog hovering over the highway. its nasty.


“Moved to Kelowna from Vancouver 2 years ago and it ‘s been a major disappointment . Encountered more problems with vandalism and unfriendly people than I’ve experienced in Vancouver in over 40 years . Very dog unfriendly as well and no one seems to know what a leash is. Customer service is essentially non exsistent and people in general are as dumb as hammers. A very nice city park but the rest of the city has all the ambience of a giant strip mall replete with the absolute worst drivers in the western world . Bu bye K town


“Stay away from kelowna..reminds me of a Mexican resort the people that work there are poor and struggle. While the people that visit are well off and comfortable. Lived here all my life and it is a smug snotty environment of people who think there so great cause they live in “kelowna” ya good for you two months of summer wow not worth the low paying grind. Recently moved to red deer Alberta I make triple than I made in that fog bowl dreary hell hole and I can actually afford to have fun. No room for advancement for any career minded individual. stay away from kelowna or you will pay….literally


“I have lived in Kelowna for 10 years now.I was a semi driver for most of it.I got lucky..that’s all.There is no industry at all,and no employment.It doesn’t matter what education you have.No economy is no economy and that’s it.I was making about 60% of what a truck driver would make elsewhere.As of Dec.2012,the housing market is on the verge of collapse,but rent is not coming down-sooo many people are desperate to milk renters to pay their mortgage as they bought high and now that property has fallen 20% they can’t make the payments.For sale signs everywhere on houses and vehicles KELOWNA IS FOR SALE-that simple.There is no hope here in Kelowna for anyone unless they have a net worth of at least $500K. The division between rich and poor is huge.

There are many families-one in five that use the food bank(if it even has food)and many people are homeless and hungry.Many people cannot afford to ESCAPE Kelowna.Get the idea?Thinking of moving to Kelowna?Don’t make the same mistake that I and many others did.If you are here and are thinking of bailing-don’t wait…it wont get better just worse.The municipal and provincial governments have failed.BC has the highest poverty rate in Canada.BC has no poverty reduction plan like other provinces and no,the BC Liberals have no affiliation with the federal Liberals and no,they don’t care about the people.If they did,things would not be as they are.


 “The Okanagan Valley is far from a fabulous place to live, especially if you actually need to make a living here. Sure there’s the lake and all the great outdoor activities, but unless you’re wealthy from making money elsewhere, have rich parents, or are a drug dealer, there’s little in terms of real employment opportunity, especially when you factor in the cost of housing and property. The vast majority of available jobs are in the service industry, which don’t pay near enough to support the cost of living. Nursing is also a big industry, due to the ever increasing geriatric take over of the area. The municipal government of the past 10 – 15 years has driven out most real tourist dollars opting to cater to retirees, and banking on the growing housing market to be the primary industry of the area before the market crashed. This has resulted in a severe lack of events during the summer that used to be a massive draw, and at least allow those working in the service industries to make a comfortable living particularly in the summer months. The area has become a sad mix of rich Jersey Shore wannabes, retired old farts and everyone else trying to make a living and/or raise a family. Anyone born without a silver spoon, wanting to live here on a 40 hour week, best of luck!


“I have lived here in Kelowna for a year and half, as I met my partner who lives here. I came from white rock bc, and I tell you, I can hardly wait to get out of this unfriendly selfish place, along with born again christians trying to tell you what to do, and if you are gay, watch out. I am a very kind and outgoing person, but if you are that way here, you get the look. My partner has been here since she was 13, and has always wanted to leave here, now is our chance, once her place sells, that’s another story, as the realistate market is not moving, and they want your place for nothing. So there it goes.


“Hi living here is not all that great. Cost of living is sky high…making real friends is also difficult because people care clicky. Lots of plastic people who have money and drug dealers galore. Unless you know you can get a good job here I wouldn’t move to this city. Its a nice place to visit in my opinion. I moved here 6 years ago and couldn’t even get a job with my teaching degree because I don’t know the right people to talk to. Every time I even try to approach the district they give me the same answers. For the first 3 years I honestly thought this place is a shit hole! I have met liars and con artists and down right dirty, ugly human being in this city.I will have to move from here go back to school and live some where more affordable. With the money I can take a flight anywhere and enjoy life comfortably and not struggle to meet ends meet.


“Moved here in 2002 with money.Trying to escape Kelowna without money now.If you want to move here,please rethink for your own good.If you want to leave,like me,do it before you run out of money. If you have no money left like me and want to leave,God help us.


“Kelowna is an absolute dump, nothing to do there, cold in winter too hot in summer, people are rude, filled to the brim with crime, horrible transit, terrible job opportunities, zero affordability.

I left as soon as I could. I now happily live in Vancouver. Most of my family sadly is in bed with the drug trade. You can’t make it in kelowna without doing such drastic illegal things.


 “Exactly. The people in this town are downright horrible. Yes, the majority are good and decent, but for a city this size, it’s unreal the amount of lowlife scumbags who live here, as well as arrogant, selfish, Jersey Shore wannabe idiots. Most people who move here will end up hating it, unless they’re rich enough to buy and ensconce themselves in a nice, expensive house in one of the outlying areas.


“I moved there from Vanouver. Lasted 2 years. the place is a dump. Nothing but an overgrown BC town filled with inbred pick up truck driving idiots. 

What’s comical is people who live there actually act like they’re snobs and live in this world class resort town. I guess they figure that Kelowna is the only place on earth with wineries and lakes. Go figure. 

Move there if you’re a small minded, small town Albertan who has never seen anything of the world. You’ll find many of your kind there and fit right in with your jacked up pick up truck, motorcycle, and boat.


 “Wow, pretty much sums it up. Well put. Yes, for some reason, every moronic retard in the country seems to think that “K-Town” is the be-all and end-all of the universe.


“You need to be making at least $40,000 a year to have a decent life here, and making real friends is difficult if you don’t already know someone or aren’t from here. People who move to Kelowna and manage to make a go of it behave as though they are members of some uppity, exclusive club, or something. It’s not Hawaii or Monte Carlo, for Christ’s sake! Get over it (AND yourselves)! There really is a disproportionate amount of truly fucked people here….way more than anywhere else I’ve been and lived (and I have travelled extensively). Assholes and idiots are the order of the day in Kelowna, with a few genuinely nice people thrown in.


“Gotta agree with you, james. I’m born and raised in Kelowna, too, and it breaks my heart watching it go from being a safe, sane, family-oriented summer vacation town to the dark, sick, evil, nasty loony bin it is now. And it’s all because of the types of people who have taken it over during the last 25 years : gangsters, criminals, drug addicts/dealers, snotty morons with more money than brains, etc. It seems Kelowna gained a dark rep after the Regatta riots of 1986-87 that it never was able to recover from. After that the Coquihalla Highway was completed, which brought us the big city evils of Vancouver only 3 1/2 hours away, and then the H.A’s setting up shop and flooding the valley with their “product”. I miss the days of Flintstones Bedrock City, Wild Waters and Wild ‘n Wet, Adventureland, and Regatta. Oh, well, at least we still have Scandia. What a tragedy.


“I moved to Kelowna to go to UBC and get my PhD.Now that I’m finished I can’t get a job. Of course! Silly me…this is a tourist town that thrives on summer employment in the service industry and high unemployment in the off-season. Employers have told me straight out that I am over educated, or asked why I would even want to apply for their posting. Duh! I want to work…I need to earn a pay cheque so I can afford to live here…there isn’t any work for educated people in this town…seriously, pick one. The irony is that I can’t work in the service/restaurant industry either because they want experienced people. Stats show that most of the high income earners residing in Kelowna, earn their money elsewhere, eg Alberta. Maybe I should follow suit and move out of province.


“I’ve been here for 5 months now and I will be leaving in 2 more days to go back to Toronto. All I can say is THANK GOD. When I first got here in late July it was fun for a couple of months..change if scenery etc… After labor day weekend this town is dead. No jobs to be found except ones that pay 12-13 dollars an hour with less than full time hours…..absolutely nothing to do. I actually felt like the last couple of months was like living in a prison. Very VERY hard to meet people and make friends here. I have never experienced so much drama in my lifetime. Horrible transit system and you pretty much need a car to survive. The only thing Kelowna has is the nice weather and the nice scenery. That is not enough to keep me here. Please people do your research and read thenegativity about this place and keep that in mind before you come here. Terrible, terrible place to live for so many reasons….


“I’m not form Canada & have lived in here for 8 years, 3 in Toronto & 5 in Kelowna, I’m now 31 years old and I’m moving back east so this summary of Kelowna is just my own personal experience

Nice summers but can get a little hot at times, great soccer set up with outdoor & indoor leagues. Beautiful scenery, great for outdoors sports, I love kayaking, good wineries & golf.

The winter can be dull and gray & I find it’s hard to travel anywhere in the winter & you are very closed off. I find the locals not welcoming and tend to keep to themselves; most of my friends here are not from Kelowna & the other half not from Canada originally.

What I really hate about Kelowna is the young people (not all but the majority & I still consider myself young at 31)  

Talk about a bunch of self-conscious & insecure people which is mostly overcome by image, I mean its ridiculous (big truck, boat, muscles, attitude, douchebag look) which results in a narcissistic & self-entitlement behavior when it just a need for acceptance.

They don’t seem ambitious, things like education, careers, travelling don’t seem important for most, for some reason they think that K-Town is be-all and end-all, please wake up people, no it is NOT, there is a big world out there, when I lived in Toronto & I told people I was moving to Kelowna their response was “WHERE IS THAT” people in Canada don’t even know you exist, get over yourself.  

Also why do you always have to be so loud, you constantly have to let people know who you are and what you’re doing, are we supposed to think you are awesome, no we don’t think that, we think you’re a complete clown who doesn’t know any better because your just buying in to the Kelowna game because you don’t know how to be any other way.


 “I grew up in the Okanagan and that freakshow of a place ruined my life and my future chances at life. The people all there are retarded FREAKS!

I hope a fire burns up Osoyooss to Penticton one day and smothers all you sissy f**ks who had mom and dad helping you out all your lives. Your people are sacks of crap who brownnose your private info because they lack a proper life. High paying careers don’t seem to stop these losers from making your day miserable. I hate this place, its truly the worst place to EVER grow up in.

Your all GANG Stalking Pussies! Karmas a b*tch!

Glad I left…go choke and die you old smelly bastards!


“There is no sense of community. The people here are flaky and unmotivated. No one smiles or says “hi” to strangers. People don’t return phone calls (this may sound like I’m just talking about my experiences, but EVERYONE I’ve talked to who wasn’t born in the area says the same thing). People don’t say “please” or “thank you”. Basically, the attitude here is “eh, someone else’ll do it.” The service is terrible in a lot of places, many restaurants are poor quality even if they are so called high end. Very insulated, dull, suburban culture. 

There is widespread poverty right next to ostentatious luxury; the difference is stark, and yet many people just ignore it.

Bottom line is, come for the nature, flee from the people. If you plan not to have contact with many people, then you may enjoy it here. Otherwise, reconsider.


“I would avoid moving to Kelowna myself, although if you’re making $100,000+, you could probably buy a nice place out in Upper Mission (major snobs), or out in outer Glenmore, and tolerate living here. But, you’ll probably grow to hate it, anyway. Living in Kelowna, I make $80,000 annually, and find that that is just enough to own my own very modest house in Rutland, drive a nice car, and go somewhere nice a couple of times a year. But, you still have to deal with the horrible people, high crime, homelessness everywhere, and asshole/idiot drivers, which is a major problem here. Not to mention drug addicts, rude, snotty kids, and drunks everywhere you go, especially downtown (I avoid going downtown for any reason). It’s just a really bad mix of people in this town, with a few decent ones thrown in, and it’s getting worse, I’m afraid. I find that whenever I go on a trip, no matter where it is, the first thing I notice is how much nicer and more civilized people are there. Rude, crass, snotty behavior is the fashion in Kelowna. If you don’t look and act like you just got out of prison, then you’re just not a hip Kelownian. Check out Vancouver Island – much nicer there, except for the weather.



I see nothing has changed from when I lived there a decade ago, if anything it’s grown worse. I had some piece of shit tell me when I moved “you’ll be back within the year”. I never looked back and I’m SO GLAD I got out of that shit hole!

The scary thing is that this is considered one of the “best places” in B.C., and even Canada! Pathetic! Only someone who has traveled and lived all over Canada like I have, can hate it with the passion I do.

Kelowna makes me puke !!!